|
Post by kyceltic on Jul 1, 2021 11:12:04 GMT -5
Booker, Chris Paul and Ayton are great, but replace their role players with the Celtics role players and they're home watching the playoffs!! Role players win championships! Ray Allen, Steve Kerr, John Paxon, Robert Horry the list goes on and on!! Lebron James, Michael Jordan, Kobe/Shaq. Do you think those players had a little more to do with it then the role players? yep, but they couldn't do it by themselves! If all it took was the greatest most unstoppable superstar ever, Wilt would have more rings than Russell!
|
|
|
Post by Cabutan on Jul 1, 2021 11:13:52 GMT -5
you and your leadership theory. Needed but it is not everything. With the Hawks, your theory is quickly rejected. With the Hawks, in an aberration year it seems due to injuries. So because 1 team in the history of the league might make it to the finals...you all of a sudden dont need veteran leadership. Ask Phoenix how much Chris Paul helped Id much rather have on court leadership on my teams, given the leagues history of champions. Young teams generally do not win i never said you didnt need leadership. I am a firm believer that leadership comes from above. You on the other hand love to dissuade my points. And no the hawks are not an aberration. Look at their leader, Nate.
|
|
|
Post by Cabutan on Jul 1, 2021 11:16:06 GMT -5
leadership comes from above otherwise why would you explain cp3 didnt make it before? Now all of the sudden cp3 is a leader? Theory rejected. What theory? That you need veteran leadership to win a championship? You reject that? We can go down the list of champions if youd like. CP3 didnt make it before because hes not good enough to carry a team as the best player on it...This year hes got a great team with another great player, along with the league being injured. Lets not act like Lebron, AD, Kawhi etc all being injured/out hasnt played a huge role in how the playoffs are being determined. your theory that just an court leader suffices. There are so many pieces involved. Role players, coaching, veteran leadership (totally different) remember brown in 2008. He barely spoke. He just did the veteran plays. Your out to lunch man. Go learn the basics then we can talk
|
|
|
Post by cole on Jul 1, 2021 11:22:13 GMT -5
As they would say on Sesame Street, one of your list is not like the others. Ray Allen at Miami was a role player! Even in Miami...would you call the 6th man a role player? I guess it is a role
|
|
|
Post by solly on Jul 1, 2021 11:24:20 GMT -5
With the Hawks, in an aberration year it seems due to injuries. So because 1 team in the history of the league might make it to the finals...you all of a sudden dont need veteran leadership. Ask Phoenix how much Chris Paul helped Id much rather have on court leadership on my teams, given the leagues history of champions. Young teams generally do not win i never said you didnt need leadership. I am a firm believer that leadership comes from above. You on the other hand love to dissuade my points. And no the hawks are not an aberration. Look at their leader, Nate. Their Leader has been to how many finals as a coach? For some reason he has failed to lead every team hes coached besides this one. 17 seasons, 0 finals appearances. All of a sudden hes a great coach thats now "leading" a team to a championship Id say they are a nice story...Having 3 of the 5 best players in the East being hurt always helps
|
|
|
Post by solly on Jul 1, 2021 11:28:27 GMT -5
What theory? That you need veteran leadership to win a championship? You reject that? We can go down the list of champions if youd like. CP3 didnt make it before because hes not good enough to carry a team as the best player on it...This year hes got a great team with another great player, along with the league being injured. Lets not act like Lebron, AD, Kawhi etc all being injured/out hasnt played a huge role in how the playoffs are being determined. your theory that just an court leader suffices. There are so many pieces involved. Role players, coaching, veteran leadership (totally different) remember brown in 2008. He barely spoke. He just did the veteran plays. Your out to lunch man. Go learn the basics then we can talk Youre acting like I think 2 players make every play, I have never discounted that having good role players matter on championship caliber teams. The Celtics currently are not a championship caliber roster. One of the biggest reasons why is their best players are 22 years old. Having mid tier veterans here, doesnt move the needle...Adding a Chris Paul would. Or what I have been saying, theyll maybe have to wait until Tatum and Brown develop. PJ Brown was a nice role player in 2008. Do you think he was the leader of the team? Or was that All world player KG? They already had top of the roster leadership, PJ brown was a hole filled in the middle of the roster What you dont seem to understand is the basics in the NBA are having superstars on your roster in their prime. Then you go from there in order to compete.
|
|
|
Post by kyceltic on Jul 1, 2021 11:31:27 GMT -5
Ray Allen at Miami was a role player! Even in Miami...would you call the 6th man a role player? I guess it is a role Crowder starts and he's being called a role player! Tatum and Brown are stars, Marcus Smart is a role player! A bad one I might add! Lol
|
|
|
Post by solly on Jul 1, 2021 11:38:56 GMT -5
I think that turned into number 8 Sexton right? Depending on who they wouldve taken...To me, thats not helping progress the team in that time span. That deal was still a no brainer for most Sexton is who Cleveland took. I thought at 6. Could be 8 Kind of like you said my thought at the time was well, I guess it makes sense. But then I'm not being paid millions of dollars to know these things am I? Would it be wrong to expect more from Danny? Especially when it comes to the personal issues around the players. Isaiah had way more reason to be upset with your organization but he always left the door open and he will always be a Celtic and loved by Boston. At least if we'd accept him, we wouldn't have Kyrie taking potshots at the city and organization. I think Danny can get some blame for that I think what Kyrie transpired to be was almost impossible to predict in 2017. Did it end up hurting the team in NBA circles more then it helped? Probably. But from his perspective Danny traded an overachieving small player with a bad hip for an all nba champion. I would still have done the deal and hoped it worked out. Danny though definitely gets blame for how he talks to the media about racial issues, and kind of passes them off as regular occurrences. I think that interview he did Post Kyrie, was much of the reason they moved on as any. Just an awful look
|
|
|
Post by puddin on Jul 1, 2021 11:40:12 GMT -5
Even in Miami...would you call the 6th man a role player? I guess it is a role Crowder starts and he's being called a role player! Tatum and Brown are stars, Marcus Smart is a role player! A bad one I might add! Lol Smart is an excellent role player.
He is not a good starter and when forced to start, the team is obviously (not his fault) in serious trouble.
He is also a excellent finisher.
No matter where he is playing next season, and I certainly have mixed feelings about his leaving, thinking he deserves to play on a team with less dysfunctional management, he will be on the court as always when games are decided.
That's serious value!
Pud
|
|
|
Post by Cabutan on Jul 1, 2021 12:01:45 GMT -5
Who in the world compares smart to crowder? Crowder was the softest 6'9 i have seen in a long time. He would sit behind the 3 and brick those up. Smart is one of the leagues best in 50/50 if not the best. One of the best defenders. Smarts problem is when he prioritizes his offense over his D. When he does the opposite, he becomes a beast in the O and in the D
|
|
|
Post by Cabutan on Jul 1, 2021 12:04:35 GMT -5
i never said you didnt need leadership. I am a firm believer that leadership comes from above. You on the other hand love to dissuade my points. And no the hawks are not an aberration. Look at their leader, Nate. Their Leader has been to how many finals as a coach? For some reason he has failed to lead every team hes coached besides this one. 17 seasons, 0 finals appearances. All of a sudden hes a great coach thats now "leading" a team to a championship Id say they are a nice story...Having 3 of the 5 best players in the East being hurt always helps monty has always been a good coach and he started young. He has experience but lets face it, he has always been a highly coveted coach in the league.
|
|
|
Post by Cabutan on Jul 1, 2021 12:10:08 GMT -5
your theory that just an court leader suffices. There are so many pieces involved. Role players, coaching, veteran leadership (totally different) remember brown in 2008. He barely spoke. He just did the veteran plays. Your out to lunch man. Go learn the basics then we can talk Youre acting like I think 2 players make every play, I have never discounted that having good role players matter on championship caliber teams. The Celtics currently are not a championship caliber roster. One of the biggest reasons why is their best players are 22 years old. Having mid tier veterans here, doesnt move the needle...Adding a Chris Paul would. Or what I have been saying, theyll maybe have to wait until Tatum and Brown develop. PJ Brown was a nice role player in 2008. Do you think he was the leader of the team? Or was that All world player KG? They already had top of the roster leadership, PJ brown was a hole filled in the middle of the roster What you dont seem to understand is the basics in the NBA are having superstars on your roster in their prime. Then you go from there in order to compete. cp3 is not in his prime. He is a 36 year old veteran playing inspired ball at this moment. Good leader yes. But your pointing out that it is because of CP3 only that they are where they are and that is a false statement. You diminish the importance of a good coach, one that can relate to the players. One that can provide the right leadership to make his players respond and work together towards a goal. You are trying to avoid that. Like i said, a lot of things play into a teams success. You only believe is stars and stars only. Then you see lebron and durant being ring chasers gathering their poseys and yet they dont make it all the time
|
|
|
Post by kyceltic on Jul 1, 2021 12:46:02 GMT -5
Crowder starts and he's being called a role player! Tatum and Brown are stars, Marcus Smart is a role player! A bad one I might add! Lol Smart is an excellent role player.
He is not a good starter and when forced to start, the team is obviously (not his fault) in serious trouble.
He is also a excellent finisher.
No matter where he is playing next season, and I certainly have mixed feelings about his leaving, thinking he deserves to play on a team with less dysfunctional management, he will be on the court as always when games are decided.
That's serious value!
Pud
a trade to the Bulls for Markkanen, would be great for him! He could back up Lavine and White, and show of his finishing skills to the Bulls fans!!
|
|
|
Post by cole on Jul 1, 2021 12:49:26 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by puddin on Jul 1, 2021 13:08:14 GMT -5
Smart is an excellent role player.
He is not a good starter and when forced to start, the team is obviously (not his fault) in serious trouble.
He is also a excellent finisher.
No matter where he is playing next season, and I certainly have mixed feelings about his leaving, thinking he deserves to play on a team with less dysfunctional management, he will be on the court as always when games are decided.
That's serious value!
Pud
a trade to the Bulls for Markkanen, would be great for him! He could back up Lavine and White, and show of his finishing skills to the Bulls fans!! Dunno squat about the Bulls and their needs.
Maybe we can agree that the 'skins have the best pair of DE's in the league in Sweat and Young.
Those two plus Payne and Allen from 'bama give them the best defensive line in the NFL.
And here comes Jamin Davis from UK.
Should be an interesting NFL season coming up.
Pud
|
|
|
Post by solly on Jul 1, 2021 13:09:39 GMT -5
Youre acting like I think 2 players make every play, I have never discounted that having good role players matter on championship caliber teams. The Celtics currently are not a championship caliber roster. One of the biggest reasons why is their best players are 22 years old. Having mid tier veterans here, doesnt move the needle...Adding a Chris Paul would. Or what I have been saying, theyll maybe have to wait until Tatum and Brown develop. PJ Brown was a nice role player in 2008. Do you think he was the leader of the team? Or was that All world player KG? They already had top of the roster leadership, PJ brown was a hole filled in the middle of the roster What you dont seem to understand is the basics in the NBA are having superstars on your roster in their prime. Then you go from there in order to compete. cp3 is not in his prime. He is a 36 year old veteran playing inspired ball at this moment. Good leader yes. But your pointing out that it is because of CP3 only that they are where they are and that is a false statement. You diminish the importance of a good coach, one that can relate to the players. One that can provide the right leadership to make his players respond and work together towards a goal. You are trying to avoid that. Like i said, a lot of things play into a teams success. You only believe is stars and stars only. Then you see lebron and durant being ring chasers gathering their poseys and yet they dont make it all the time OK to break down this post, lets go point by point. CP3 is still a great player, but Booker is also developing into a great player as well. CP3 provides leadership at the top of your roster which is clearly needed and has clearly made a difference. Ayton had a quote last week saying CP3 has been the best thing thats ever happened to his career. The Suns were under .500 last year, Monty was still the coach and the core of the roster was still the same. What was added this season that took the team to a different level? I do diminish the importance of any coach, because a coach is only as good as his players. Again, Monty might be a great coach...but last year his team was young and lacking a leader at the top of the roster....They were a bad team. For some reason his leadership didnt matter. A lot of things do play into team success, but by far the most important is how good your best players are. Not sure what Lebron and Durant are being used for in this discussion, but Lebron has been to the finals 10 times...So I think that helps my argument. A vast majority of appearances/wins are by teams with superstar players leading them.
|
|
|
Post by solly on Jul 1, 2021 13:14:23 GMT -5
Their Leader has been to how many finals as a coach? For some reason he has failed to lead every team hes coached besides this one. 17 seasons, 0 finals appearances. All of a sudden hes a great coach thats now "leading" a team to a championship Id say they are a nice story...Having 3 of the 5 best players in the East being hurt always helps monty has always been a good coach and he started young. He has experience but lets face it, he has always been a highly coveted coach in the league. Is Monty a good leader? Why didnt it matter for the first 6 years of his coaching career? Or more importantly the Sun team he "lead" to below .500 last year In just this decade Lebron went to the finals with coaches of Spoelstra, Blatt, Lue, Vogel. Are they the leaders or was Lebron?
|
|
|
Post by kyceltic on Jul 1, 2021 14:02:17 GMT -5
a trade to the Bulls for Markkanen, would be great for him! He could back up Lavine and White, and show of his finishing skills to the Bulls fans!! Dunno squat about the Bulls and their needs.
Maybe we can agree that the 'skins have the best pair of DE's in the league in Sweat and Young.
Those two plus Payne and Allen from 'bama give them the best defensive line in the NFL.
And here comes Jamin Davis from UK.
Should be an interesting NFL season coming up.
Pud
We're back baby!!
|
|
|
Post by Cabutan on Jul 1, 2021 14:38:25 GMT -5
cp3 is not in his prime. He is a 36 year old veteran playing inspired ball at this moment. Good leader yes. But your pointing out that it is because of CP3 only that they are where they are and that is a false statement. You diminish the importance of a good coach, one that can relate to the players. One that can provide the right leadership to make his players respond and work together towards a goal. You are trying to avoid that. Like i said, a lot of things play into a teams success. You only believe is stars and stars only. Then you see lebron and durant being ring chasers gathering their poseys and yet they dont make it all the time OK to break down this post, lets go point by point. CP3 is still a great player, but Booker is also developing into a great player as well. CP3 provides leadership at the top of your roster which is clearly needed and has clearly made a difference. Ayton had a quote last week saying CP3 has been the best thing thats ever happened to his career. The Suns were under .500 last year, Monty was still the coach and the core of the roster was still the same. What was added this season that took the team to a different level? I do diminish the importance of any coach, because a coach is only as good as his players. Again, Monty might be a great coach...but last year his team was young and lacking a leader at the top of the roster....They were a bad team. For some reason his leadership didnt matter. A lot of things do play into team success, but by far the most important is how good your best players are. Not sure what Lebron and Durant are being used for in this discussion, but Lebron has been to the finals 10 times...So I think that helps my argument. A vast majority of appearances/wins are by teams with superstar players leading them. where was cp3 last year? Or the years before? Totally avoided the question. Lebron and durant are ring chasers. Lebron is a dominant player. 10 years in the finals under his main condition, to be paired up with the best players. Dont be naive. Suns were not a bad team. They were a team growing with Ayton trying to get back in shape from his previous injuries.
|
|
|
Post by Cabutan on Jul 1, 2021 14:40:58 GMT -5
cp3 is not in his prime. He is a 36 year old veteran playing inspired ball at this moment. Good leader yes. But your pointing out that it is because of CP3 only that they are where they are and that is a false statement. You diminish the importance of a good coach, one that can relate to the players. One that can provide the right leadership to make his players respond and work together towards a goal. You are trying to avoid that. Like i said, a lot of things play into a teams success. You only believe is stars and stars only. Then you see lebron and durant being ring chasers gathering their poseys and yet they dont make it all the time OK to break down this post, lets go point by point. CP3 is still a great player, but Booker is also developing into a great player as well. CP3 provides leadership at the top of your roster which is clearly needed and has clearly made a difference. Ayton had a quote last week saying CP3 has been the best thing thats ever happened to his career. The Suns were under .500 last year, Monty was still the coach and the core of the roster was still the same. What was added this season that took the team to a different level? I do diminish the importance of any coach, because a coach is only as good as his players. Again, Monty might be a great coach...but last year his team was young and lacking a leader at the top of the roster....They were a bad team. For some reason his leadership didnt matter. A lot of things do play into team success, but by far the most important is how good your best players are. Not sure what Lebron and Durant are being used for in this discussion, but Lebron has been to the finals 10 times...So I think that helps my argument. A vast majority of appearances/wins are by teams with superstar players leading them. avoided the hawks question. Your only answer was that they are an aberration. The only aberration I see is someone that cant recognize how good of a coach Mcmillan is. Always gets his teams to be young gunners.
|
|
|
Post by solly on Jul 1, 2021 14:48:03 GMT -5
OK to break down this post, lets go point by point. CP3 is still a great player, but Booker is also developing into a great player as well. CP3 provides leadership at the top of your roster which is clearly needed and has clearly made a difference. Ayton had a quote last week saying CP3 has been the best thing thats ever happened to his career. The Suns were under .500 last year, Monty was still the coach and the core of the roster was still the same. What was added this season that took the team to a different level? I do diminish the importance of any coach, because a coach is only as good as his players. Again, Monty might be a great coach...but last year his team was young and lacking a leader at the top of the roster....They were a bad team. For some reason his leadership didnt matter. A lot of things do play into team success, but by far the most important is how good your best players are. Not sure what Lebron and Durant are being used for in this discussion, but Lebron has been to the finals 10 times...So I think that helps my argument. A vast majority of appearances/wins are by teams with superstar players leading them. where was cp3 last year? Or the years before? Totally avoided the question. Lebron and durant are ring chasers. Lebron is a dominant player. 10 years in the finals under his main condition, to be paired up with the best players. Dont be naive. Suns were not a bad team. They were a team growing with Ayton trying to get back in shape from his previous injuries. I answered that...CP3 is not a superstar level player at the caliber where he can carry teams to a championship as the best player. But hes good enough to be a leader on the team that has other really good players if the mix is good enough. Again, this is also a down year for the league due to injuries. If CP3 was on the Celtics he wouldnt be the best player on the team, but hed be still really good and be able to lead in the locker room. Which clearly hes doing in PHX. Its bizarre how your logic is saying where was CP3 last year...but just completely ignore the fact that Mcmillian and Monty have done jack shit as coaches...But theyre great leaders lmao Again, Lebron can be labeled as a ring chaser in your opinion...He definitely wasnt chasing coaches. He wanted the best roster, he didnt give a shit who the coach was. Theres a reason for that. And the Suns were below .500. Booker and Ayton were still there. Along with a lot of core pieces on the team. Under the rule of Monty. They werent a good team, but if you think its because the players growing and Ayton getting healthy was a huge help...Then why does Monty get any credit? That player driven success
|
|
|
Post by solly on Jul 1, 2021 14:52:25 GMT -5
OK to break down this post, lets go point by point. CP3 is still a great player, but Booker is also developing into a great player as well. CP3 provides leadership at the top of your roster which is clearly needed and has clearly made a difference. Ayton had a quote last week saying CP3 has been the best thing thats ever happened to his career. The Suns were under .500 last year, Monty was still the coach and the core of the roster was still the same. What was added this season that took the team to a different level? I do diminish the importance of any coach, because a coach is only as good as his players. Again, Monty might be a great coach...but last year his team was young and lacking a leader at the top of the roster....They were a bad team. For some reason his leadership didnt matter. A lot of things do play into team success, but by far the most important is how good your best players are. Not sure what Lebron and Durant are being used for in this discussion, but Lebron has been to the finals 10 times...So I think that helps my argument. A vast majority of appearances/wins are by teams with superstar players leading them. avoided the hawks question. Your only answer was that they are an aberration. The only aberration I see is someone that cant recognize how good of a coach Mcmillan is. Always gets his teams to be young gunners. What are you talking about? I am avoiding nothing, theres no Hawks mentioned in our last posts...How am I supposed to answer a question that wasnt asked. I never called Mcmillan a bad or great coach. Hes a coach. And in his 17 years has been to ZERO, 0, Cero...Finals...Now because one of his teams is in the ECF hes a great coach. You dont make much sense. Lebron went to the finals with 4 coaches this decade. It doesnt matter at all. Youve ignored every point I made in the last 2 posts and just answered with irrelevant drivel I know youre being backed into a wall with examples across the leagues history...Itd be nice if you could provide some to help prove your point.
|
|
|
Post by Cabutan on Jul 1, 2021 16:39:29 GMT -5
avoided the hawks question. Your only answer was that they are an aberration. The only aberration I see is someone that cant recognize how good of a coach Mcmillan is. Always gets his teams to be young gunners. What are you talking about? I am avoiding nothing, theres no Hawks mentioned in our last posts...How am I supposed to answer a question that wasnt asked. I never called Mcmillan a bad or great coach. Hes a coach. And in his 17 years has been to ZERO, 0, Cero...Finals...Now because one of his teams is in the ECF hes a great coach. You dont make much sense. Lebron went to the finals with 4 coaches this decade. It doesnt matter at all. Youve ignored every point I made in the last 2 posts and just answered with irrelevant drivel I know youre being backed into a wall with examples across the leagues history...Itd be nice if you could provide some to help prove your point. fierce mcmillan hasnt won anything, alot of good coaches have not won anything. thats not the point here bitch. The point is that you want to make it all about a player and its leadership but refuse to acknowledge that it takes more than that. You also refuse to acknowledge that leadership comes from top down. You have mentioned all along that coaches dont need to call plays. That players do. You claim that players dont respond to coaches when in reality they do. I say is a combination of things but coaches do play a role. Lebron has always always teamed up. His finals have nothing to do with him being the leader and winning it all. Why do the league have coaches??? Just to show off? A good coached team with the a good core and good role players is what it takes. Not a player leader because it would have mattered nothing if CP3 was in Boston. Or do you think we would be seeing Boston and phoenix out of the playoffs?? Get real. Where is atlantas player leader? Where? Where is Milwaukees leader?? Who was in the clips?
|
|
|
Post by Cabutan on Jul 1, 2021 16:41:13 GMT -5
where was cp3 last year? Or the years before? Totally avoided the question. Lebron and durant are ring chasers. Lebron is a dominant player. 10 years in the finals under his main condition, to be paired up with the best players. Dont be naive. Suns were not a bad team. They were a team growing with Ayton trying to get back in shape from his previous injuries. I answered that...CP3 is not a superstar level player at the caliber where he can carry teams to a championship as the best player. But hes good enough to be a leader on the team that has other really good players if the mix is good enough. Again, this is also a down year for the league due to injuries. If CP3 was on the Celtics he wouldnt be the best player on the team, but hed be still really good and be able to lead in the locker room. Which clearly hes doing in PHX. Its bizarre how your logic is saying where was CP3 last year...but just completely ignore the fact that Mcmillian and Monty have done jack shit as coaches...But theyre great leaders lmao Again, Lebron can be labeled as a ring chaser in your opinion...He definitely wasnt chasing coaches. He wanted the best roster, he didnt give a shit who the coach was. Theres a reason for that. And the Suns were below .500. Booker and Ayton were still there. Along with a lot of core pieces on the team. Under the rule of Monty. They werent a good team, but if you think its because the players growing and Ayton getting healthy was a huge help...Then why does Monty get any credit? That player driven success lebron did chased coaches. I remember one or a few being fired to make ways for the ones he wanted.
|
|
|
Post by Cabutan on Jul 1, 2021 16:42:22 GMT -5
where was cp3 last year? Or the years before? Totally avoided the question. Lebron and durant are ring chasers. Lebron is a dominant player. 10 years in the finals under his main condition, to be paired up with the best players. Dont be naive. Suns were not a bad team. They were a team growing with Ayton trying to get back in shape from his previous injuries. I answered that...CP3 is not a superstar level player at the caliber where he can carry teams to a championship as the best player. But hes good enough to be a leader on the team that has other really good players if the mix is good enough. Again, this is also a down year for the league due to injuries. If CP3 was on the Celtics he wouldnt be the best player on the team, but hed be still really good and be able to lead in the locker room. Which clearly hes doing in PHX. Its bizarre how your logic is saying where was CP3 last year...but just completely ignore the fact that Mcmillian and Monty have done jack shit as coaches...But theyre great leaders lmao Again, Lebron can be labeled as a ring chaser in your opinion...He definitely wasnt chasing coaches. He wanted the best roster, he didnt give a shit who the coach was. Theres a reason for that. And the Suns were below .500. Booker and Ayton were still there. Along with a lot of core pieces on the team. Under the rule of Monty. They werent a good team, but if you think its because the players growing and Ayton getting healthy was a huge help...Then why does Monty get any credit? That player driven success monty gets the credit to make them play as a team asswipe.
|
|