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Post by drewski6 on Jan 12, 2021 16:57:53 GMT -5
Like I said, Barnes and Hayward play the same position and are the same size. You are just assuming that he accepts his 4th option role then as the upgrade? OK, one more attempt: Hayward is NOT better than Barnes in EVERY aspect of the game. Does this help? Name one.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2021 16:58:14 GMT -5
Ah, OK. If you elaborate a little then I don't have draw inferences from single line questions. Yes, that is a legitimate observation that A Gordon and Thad Young may be better options than Barnes. As I have seen a good bit of Barnes I may have a higher opinion of him than your assessment.
As for not finishing games with Kemba, Brown, Tatum, Hayward and Theis, I am assuming that you are talking about the Miami game? My analysis was simple, Hayward playing like shit on the offensive end becomes inferior to Smart in the lineup. I would have yanked him too.
Sure, I honestly thought me referencing Barnes' size and position in relation to Haywards was pretty clear, but I could see how it could be mistaken. The lineup I referenced was listed a while back as not working. Cant remember who wrote it, and I know Fierce has said this is the lineup of the Celtics 5 best players and it was bad all last year. The balance question that you both have, could be used against Fierce here. Why must you have your 5 "best" players on the court if you could easily bench one and become balanced? Especially to end the game? Thats where I come from blaming Hayward as all that is talked about is replacing him as he is redundant. I guess it doesnt matter now that hes gone, but I think last year the lineup was a coaching issue Ok, we are getting closer.
I am not in the group that squarely blames Hayward for last year, except for my frustration with him in the Miami series. If anything, Danny gets the most blame for not upgrading at last year's trade deadline. I understand that the Celts were hard capped, completely limiting options and all, but that was a missed opportunity.
As for lineups, there just weren't good options. Wannamaker had the most defined role after the first 6. After that you could only put in players for a few minutes and hope that things will stay OK. The options were (Smiley & Friendly) Kanter, (Spacy) RWill, (Soft) GWill and (Uncertain) Langford. Yes, we could go further down the depth chart as well.
So I don't see it as a coaching issue.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2021 16:59:40 GMT -5
OK, one more attempt: Hayward is NOT better than Barnes in EVERY aspect of the game. Does this help? Name one. Didn't get that. Elaborate please.
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Post by solly on Jan 12, 2021 17:00:09 GMT -5
Like I said, Barnes and Hayward play the same position and are the same size. You are just assuming that he accepts his 4th option role then as the upgrade? No, its because Barnes has a PF next to his name and Hayward a SF. Even though Barnes, really, isnt a PF. They think he is bigger and more physical because of the letters. Here's something to chew on: Harrison Barnes gets like 0.3 blocks/game and like 4.5 boards/game. Aaron Gordon, he is not. Is he even listed as a PF? I know the Kings play with a center and Bagley right? Both are bigger then him
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Post by drewski6 on Jan 12, 2021 17:01:07 GMT -5
Ah, OK. If you elaborate a little then I don't have draw inferences from single line questions. Yes, that is a legitimate observation that A Gordon and Thad Young may be better options than Barnes. As I have seen a good bit of Barnes I may have a higher opinion of him than your assessment.
As for not finishing games with Kemba, Brown, Tatum, Hayward and Theis, I am assuming that you are talking about the Miami game? My analysis was simple, Hayward playing like shit on the offensive end becomes inferior to Smart in the lineup. I would have yanked him too.
Sure, I honestly thought me referencing Barnes' size and position in relation to Haywards was pretty clear, but I could see how it could be mistaken. The lineup I referenced was listed a while back as not working. Cant remember who wrote it, and I know Fierce has said this is the lineup of the Celtics 5 best players and it was bad all last year. The balance question that you both have, could be used against Fierce here. Why must you have your 5 "best" players on the court if you could easily bench one and become balanced? Especially to end the game? Thats where I come from blaming Hayward as all that is talked about is replacing him as he is redundant. I guess it doesnt matter now that hes gone, but I think last year the lineup was a coaching issue I can tell you whats going on here. Solly is having multiple conversations with multiple people that are going off in multiple directions. Prakash's points are not KY's points, which are not Fierce's points or Che's points or my points. Some people here really do have the wrong impression of what Harrison Barnes is. Maybe Prakash isnt one of them. But there isnt a GM in the league who would take Barnes over GH at equal money. And theres a reason for that. And they really are similarly styled players. The only difference is GH is much much much better. At this point, I wouldnt trade Semi for Barnes.
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Post by drewski6 on Jan 12, 2021 17:03:04 GMT -5
No, its because Barnes has a PF next to his name and Hayward a SF. Even though Barnes, really, isnt a PF. They think he is bigger and more physical because of the letters. Here's something to chew on: Harrison Barnes gets like 0.3 blocks/game and like 4.5 boards/game. Aaron Gordon, he is not. Is he even listed as a PF? I know the Kings play with a center and Bagley right? Both are bigger then him At one point , he was. Right now he's listed as PF/SF. But we all know that GH isnt a PF. So some people see GH as a SF but Barnes as a SF/PF. But to be honest, GH uses his strength/size a lot more than Barnes does. SO really, its GH who plays bigger and is closer to the PF. Ive seen Hayward post up. Never Barnes.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2021 17:04:11 GMT -5
No, its because Barnes has a PF next to his name and Hayward a SF. Even though Barnes, really, isnt a PF. They think he is bigger and more physical because of the letters. Here's something to chew on: Harrison Barnes gets like 0.3 blocks/game and like 4.5 boards/game. Aaron Gordon, he is not. Is he even listed as a PF? I know the Kings play with a center and Bagley right? Both are bigger then him He brings in the combination of strength, length and mobility. He is not the ball handler and creator but he can exploit mismatches. He is a pretty good defender.
Until his shooting brain shut down in the 2016 NBA finals, he was a reliable open shooter as well. He, Klay and Draymond Green were the defensive backbones of that fantastic Warriors team.
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Post by solly on Jan 12, 2021 17:05:50 GMT -5
Sure, I honestly thought me referencing Barnes' size and position in relation to Haywards was pretty clear, but I could see how it could be mistaken. The lineup I referenced was listed a while back as not working. Cant remember who wrote it, and I know Fierce has said this is the lineup of the Celtics 5 best players and it was bad all last year. The balance question that you both have, could be used against Fierce here. Why must you have your 5 "best" players on the court if you could easily bench one and become balanced? Especially to end the game? Thats where I come from blaming Hayward as all that is talked about is replacing him as he is redundant. I guess it doesnt matter now that hes gone, but I think last year the lineup was a coaching issue Ok, we are getting closer.
I am not in the group that squarely blames Hayward for last year, except for my frustration with him in the Miami series. If anything, Danny gets the most blame for not upgrading at last year's trade deadline. I understand that the Celts were hard capped, completely limiting options and all, but that was a missed opportunity.
As for lineups, there just weren't good options. Wannamaker had the most defined role after the first 6. After that you could only put in players for a few minutes and hope that things will stay OK. The options were (Smiley & Friendly) Kanter, (Spacy) RWill, (Soft) GWill and (Uncertain) Langford. Yes, we could go further down the depth chart as well.
So I don't see it as a coaching issue.
The line up issue that was brought up I dont think came into play as much simply because Hayward was hurt in the playoffs. But like I said, if Fierces ideal lineup of Kemba, smart, brown, tatum, and Hayward is your best 5 why cant you just sit smart and play Theis? But again, thats besides the point, no need to go back to last year
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2021 17:06:22 GMT -5
Sure, I honestly thought me referencing Barnes' size and position in relation to Haywards was pretty clear, but I could see how it could be mistaken. The lineup I referenced was listed a while back as not working. Cant remember who wrote it, and I know Fierce has said this is the lineup of the Celtics 5 best players and it was bad all last year. The balance question that you both have, could be used against Fierce here. Why must you have your 5 "best" players on the court if you could easily bench one and become balanced? Especially to end the game? Thats where I come from blaming Hayward as all that is talked about is replacing him as he is redundant. I guess it doesnt matter now that hes gone, but I think last year the lineup was a coaching issue I can tell you whats going on here. Solly is having multiple conversations with multiple people that are going off in multiple directions. Prakash's points are not KY's points, which are not Fierce's points or Che's points or my points. Some people here really do have the wrong impression of what Harrison Barnes is. Maybe Prakash isnt one of them. But there isnt a GM in the league who would take Barnes over GH at equal money. And theres a reason for that. And they really are similarly styled players. The only difference is GH is much much much better. At this point, I wouldnt trade Semi for Barnes. No argument there, in fact that has been my point. I am arguing that what Barnes does better than Hayward fits better with the Celts.
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Post by drewski6 on Jan 12, 2021 17:08:20 GMT -5
To me, in a H2H. Hayward is the stronger player with the bigger frame who plays more physical. Barnes is the better shooter. They both use their mobility and length well. Barnes is the better defender because he seems to have better body control. But GH has always been an underrated defender. Hes not good, but hes not as bad as advertised.
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Post by drewski6 on Jan 12, 2021 17:10:50 GMT -5
Ok, we are getting closer.
I am not in the group that squarely blames Hayward for last year, except for my frustration with him in the Miami series. If anything, Danny gets the most blame for not upgrading at last year's trade deadline. I understand that the Celts were hard capped, completely limiting options and all, but that was a missed opportunity.
As for lineups, there just weren't good options. Wannamaker had the most defined role after the first 6. After that you could only put in players for a few minutes and hope that things will stay OK. The options were (Smiley & Friendly) Kanter, (Spacy) RWill, (Soft) GWill and (Uncertain) Langford. Yes, we could go further down the depth chart as well.
So I don't see it as a coaching issue.
The line up issue that was brought up I dont think came into play as much simply because Hayward was hurt in the playoffs. But like I said, if Fierces ideal lineup of Kemba, smart, brown, tatum, and Hayward is your best 5 why cant you just not sit smart and play Theis? But again, thats besides the point, no need to go back to last year We did, it just didnt work. Bam was doing a lot of damage w Theis on the court.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2021 17:10:59 GMT -5
Ok, we are getting closer.
I am not in the group that squarely blames Hayward for last year, except for my frustration with him in the Miami series. If anything, Danny gets the most blame for not upgrading at last year's trade deadline. I understand that the Celts were hard capped, completely limiting options and all, but that was a missed opportunity.
As for lineups, there just weren't good options. Wannamaker had the most defined role after the first 6. After that you could only put in players for a few minutes and hope that things will stay OK. The options were (Smiley & Friendly) Kanter, (Spacy) RWill, (Soft) GWill and (Uncertain) Langford. Yes, we could go further down the depth chart as well.
So I don't see it as a coaching issue.
The line up issue that was brought up I dont think came into play as much simply because Hayward was hurt in the playoffs. But like I said, if Fierces ideal lineup of Kemba, smart, brown, tatum, and Hayward is your best 5 why cant you just not sit smart and play Theis? But again, thats besides the point, no need to go back to last year OK, let Fierce's arguments be his, he has a right to his perspective. I am discussing last year's team vs this year's team.
Changing topics, last year was a big disappointment because it was the second time that the Celts just folded. The first was in Game 7 against the Cavs. The second time was in Miami series. Left a really bad taste in the mouth. Miami had Iguodala shooting 3s and Boston had Kemba and Hayward missing big shots after big shots.
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Post by solly on Jan 12, 2021 17:14:09 GMT -5
The line up issue that was brought up I dont think came into play as much simply because Hayward was hurt in the playoffs. But like I said, if Fierces ideal lineup of Kemba, smart, brown, tatum, and Hayward is your best 5 why cant you just not sit smart and play Theis? But again, thats besides the point, no need to go back to last year We did, it just didnt work. Bam was doing a lot of damage w Theis on the court. Oh I know, just wondering why everything seems to go back to Hayward
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2021 17:16:45 GMT -5
To me, in a H2H. Hayward is the stronger player with the bigger frame who plays more physical. Barnes is the better shooter. They both use their mobility and length well. Barnes is the better defender because he seems to have better body control. But GH has always been an underrated defender. Hes not good, but hes not as bad as advertised. Wow! We can't have more different opinions.
I see Barnes as physical and Hayward as skilled and with more versatility and finesse. Hayward has much better ball handling and body control as well. I see Barnes as the better defender (physical and position), rebounder and inside finisher (Hayward fades away).
That Hayward is a good player, and overall much better than Barnes, is an orthogonal topic.
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Post by solly on Jan 12, 2021 17:18:00 GMT -5
The line up issue that was brought up I dont think came into play as much simply because Hayward was hurt in the playoffs. But like I said, if Fierces ideal lineup of Kemba, smart, brown, tatum, and Hayward is your best 5 why cant you just not sit smart and play Theis? But again, thats besides the point, no need to go back to last year OK, let Fierce's arguments be his, he has a right to his perspective. I am discussing last year's team vs this year's team.
Changing topics, last year was a big disappointment because it was the second time that the Celts just folded. The first was in Game 7 against the Cavs. The second time was in Miami series. Left a really bad taste in the mouth. Miami had Iguodala shooting 3s and Boston had Kemba and Hayward missing bug shots after big shots.
Sure, at this point im probably arguing too many different perspectives ive seen over the past few weeks anyway. Ya to me last year against Miami was disappointing because the Celtics were a better roster and team and they just didnt elevate in the playoffs. That doesnt happen much in the NBA. Their best players simply didnt play well. A lot of what happened in last years series has happened early this year as well. Big blown leads, poor 3rd quarters, scoring droughts that last 5+minutes and trouble closing games. That to me has been nerve-wracking so far this year. But honestly, as long as Tatum and Brown keep developing the better.
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Post by drewski6 on Jan 12, 2021 17:19:09 GMT -5
We did, it just didnt work. Bam was doing a lot of damage w Theis on the court. Oh I know, just wondering why everything seems to go back to Hayward Mostly, thats Fierce. KY seems to be drinking his kool-aid a bit though. But I think KY more falls into the "misconception of who HB is"; whereas, Fierce is more "lack of a good frontcourt did us in, and if that was improved - the team would be so improved, that we'd still be better even if you subtract Hayward" My position is that every C in the league is the same, and playing musical chairs w em wont win/lose you many games. We'll go as far as Tatum and Brown carry us. But a reliable third scoring option would be huge. And I really dont care what position that third scoring option plays. Id be fine if it was GH.
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Post by drewski6 on Jan 12, 2021 17:20:14 GMT -5
OK, let Fierce's arguments be his, he has a right to his perspective. I am discussing last year's team vs this year's team.
Changing topics, last year was a big disappointment because it was the second time that the Celts just folded. The first was in Game 7 against the Cavs. The second time was in Miami series. Left a really bad taste in the mouth. Miami had Iguodala shooting 3s and Boston had Kemba and Hayward missing bug shots after big shots.
Sure, at this point im probably arguing too many different perspectives ive seen over the past few weeks anyway. I can assure you, thats whats happening. Especially cuz youre still relatively new. Many of us are probably blending together, which is to be expected.
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Post by drewski6 on Jan 12, 2021 17:21:51 GMT -5
My view of Mia and C's are : C's get too much blame and Mia doesnt get enough credit. Sure, our offense sputtered at times. But Dragic played the series of his life. Butler was clutch. Bam went off. Herro had that one dominant game. They came together and played above their talent level.
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Post by drewski6 on Jan 12, 2021 17:23:27 GMT -5
It makes sense to me that, on a celtics forum, our perspective would be : things celtics could have done better. I dont think its that black/white tho.
Kemba was hurt. GH was hurt. Dragic had the series of his life. Butler was clutch. Bam got hot. Herro had a breakout game and stole one. Add all that up.
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Post by solly on Jan 12, 2021 17:24:12 GMT -5
Oh I know, just wondering why everything seems to go back to Hayward Mostly, thats Fierce. KY seems to be drinking his kool-aid a bit though. But I think KY more falls into the "misconception of who HB is"; whereas, Fierce is more "lack of a good frontcourt did us in, and if that was improved - the team would be so improved, that we'd still be better even if you subtract Hayward" My position is that every C in the league is the same, and playing musical chairs w em wont win/lose you many games. We'll go as far as Tatum and Brown carry us. But a reliable third scoring option would be huge. And I really dont care what position that third scoring option plays. Id be fine if it was GH. Pretty much agree with all of this. The role Players arent winning this team anything. All about Tatum and Brwon
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2021 17:27:33 GMT -5
My view of Mia and C's are : C's get too much blame and Mia doesnt get enough credit. Sure, our offense sputtered at times. But Dragic played the series of his life. Butler was clutch. Bam went off. Herro had that one dominant game. They came together and played above their talent level. But that is supposed to happen in the playoffs. You can't fold, you have to come to play. The 2016 series between the Warriors and OKC was something to see. OKC raised their game to a different level and had the Warriors on the ropes. Until Klay Thompson decided that it will not be so.
We can give credit to Miami but I assign more blame to Boston being soft.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2021 17:29:35 GMT -5
Mostly, thats Fierce. KY seems to be drinking his kool-aid a bit though. But I think KY more falls into the "misconception of who HB is"; whereas, Fierce is more "lack of a good frontcourt did us in, and if that was improved - the team would be so improved, that we'd still be better even if you subtract Hayward" My position is that every C in the league is the same, and playing musical chairs w em wont win/lose you many games. We'll go as far as Tatum and Brown carry us. But a reliable third scoring option would be huge. And I really dont care what position that third scoring option plays. Id be fine if it was GH. Pretty much agree with all of this. The role Players arent winning this team anything. All about Tatum and Brwon
OK, now go ahead and tell drewski that he is wrong about Dragic, Herro and others observation.
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Post by hedleylamarr on Jan 12, 2021 17:32:11 GMT -5
Again, Brad doesn't have the traditional roles for players. The Celtics employ a PG, a big and 3 "wings". Harrison Barnes, Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum and the kid from Butler, all qualify as "wings." Right now, yes, he is trying 2 "bigs", but this is unusual for him. As long as you can defend multiple positions, you'll play for Brad
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Post by drewski6 on Jan 12, 2021 17:35:19 GMT -5
My view of Mia and C's are : C's get too much blame and Mia doesnt get enough credit. Sure, our offense sputtered at times. But Dragic played the series of his life. Butler was clutch. Bam went off. Herro had that one dominant game. They came together and played above their talent level. But that is supposed to happen in the playoffs. You can't fold, you have to come to play. The 2016 series between the Warriors and OKC was something to see. OKC raised their game to a different level and had the Warriors on the ropes. Until Klay Thompson decided that it will not be so.
We can give credit to Miami but I assign more blame to Boston being soft.
Thats fair.
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Post by solly on Jan 12, 2021 18:19:50 GMT -5
Pretty much agree with all of this. The role Players arent winning this team anything. All about Tatum and Brwon
OK, now go ahead and tell drewski that he is wrong about Dragic, Herro and others observation.
Why? Those guys went on an aberration run in a pretty chaotic year. At the end of the day those guys lost. I 100% agree with you that the Celtics underachieved in that series, as did the Bucks
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