They may not be better but they do have a completely different game philosophy ... one of pace and spacing that you seldom see when Embiid is the focus of their offense.
Did Mazz have us prepared for a quicker pace (they have younger legs other than Harden/PJ) and prepared to defend the spacing? Why wasn't White in there in Q4 crunch time. He went to the bench at the 8 minute mark and never returned! BTW, that lineup change was the only one Mazz made in Q4:
Celtics lineup change (Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, Malcolm Brogdon, Marcus Smart, Al Horford)
Doc, on the other hand, changed his lineup 7 times in Q4 ...
I think their philosophy of "take what the opponent gives you" was a rope-a-dope by Doc that Mazz was fooled into with such easy scoring in the paint. That would have been fine had he offset their scoring with better defense of the perimeter which meant less Horford and more White ... whatever happened to small ball. Even Grant would have been better!
Doc also went to zone defense that always seems to frustrate our offense.
And finally, TOVs ... 16 Celtic turnovers to what, 6 for Sixers?
I'm sorry to bring up Officiating but two plays stand out as egregious to me:
1) PJ wipping his fist 180 degrees to smack Tatum coming from behind him wacking him in the nutz was w/o a doubt intentional. Refs talked about it 2 mins but never reviewed it ( a sure F1) ...
2) Smart being called for a block on Maxy's drive where 1 ref called the block and another a charge. Clearly Smart was o/s the circle and position established but the ref qualifies the block indicating that Maxey had left the court before Smart stopped moving. When you have to look that hard and measure movement and time in micro inches or seconds then your looking for an excuse rather than calling what you see.
That said, they lost the game not because of those calls but from poor defense and coaching. F&M even played an audio clip from TNT where Smart was directing players who to guard and telling Mazz to put him back in ...
yea that was dirty. Tatum has to toughen up though. Needs to stop complaining about every single call and play hard on both ends.
So Im seeing some passive aggressive shots being taken at me (what else is new?) and some takes that I disagree with.
1. They took away our best weapon the 3. We shot nearly 38.5% from 3, on 10 made off 26 attempts. 38.5% is a fine number, 26 attempts is not. So its not that they took them away, its that we werent going for them at our usual rate. 2. I cant help but think no Embiid - this is why our 3pt attempts were low. At least a large part of the reason. I understand, theyre without Embiid - so lets pound em inside...But when they are red hot from 3, and youre getting 2 on trips down and theyre answering w a 3 - they are scoring 50% more than you on each possession. Thats going to add up and it did. 3. With Embiid in the game, he also takes 3s and youd prob rather have him shooting them than Harden. So, I can see how going Embiid-less was a trap. It made Harden take more shots. ANd it caused us to go inside more. We scored with a very high efficiency. Make after make. But too many 2s and we couldnt keep up with all their 3s. Not saying Embiid is bad, just saying his absence had some hidden benefits for them. 4. I was happy to hear Mazz say we didnt take enough 3s. Cuz we didnt. Makes me also think this go for 2 strategy was not his. Not to say he was great. 5. The reason I wouldnt say Mazz was great (agree w petey) was because of the 3 pt perimeter defense. I have no idea where this notion that defense means stopping the 2 comes from. Its also defending against the 3. Al played drop the whole game (meaning retreat to the basket for rim defense). RWill jsut cant at all cover the perimeter. SO not sure how him playing more or in more crucial minutes would help.
We got 3'd to death. When teams are doing that, no amount of 2s will save you. Generally people here dont like the 3. But nobody is realizing that this may be an ill-informed point of view. Instead, its passive agressive shots at each other and wanting more inside defense/play when we got smoked by the 3.
First and foremost, we need to play better perimeter defense and not give so many open 3s. Secondly, we need to launch more 3s of our own.
yea it's a numbers game. 2 and 3s. But, if you make them that is. If you have shooters. Do we? I don't think so. We have inconsistent shooters. So some days we will win some, some days we will lose some. Defend either the two or the 3 on those low games will set us free. Trying to outscore a better shooting team, good luck with that.
Of course we do. Per the stat Admin posted, 3pt % by team - we are fifth.
Also, note Philly is #1. So you may be thinking - if they are #1 and we are #5 - then wouldnt their plan be to just match our 3's? But then look at this.
While the first link is 3pts by make percentage, the second link is 3pt shot volume. We're second (42 attempts/game), Philly is 16th (32.7) attempts / game.
So the reason why they always fall on their faces in playoffs w Embiid (that team has had disappointing finish after disappointing finish) - and the reason they werent a higher seed this year - is because they do not take enough 3s. If you are #1 in 3pt make percentage, wouldnt you want to be higher than 16th out of 30 in attempts? Do what you are good at. So with Embiid out, they changed their whole offensive game plan and started embracing the 3 ball. And the results speak for themselves. They killed us at the perimeter.
Mazz cannot be spared, we couldnt defend the 3 all night - and at least part of that has to be on him. But this is what Im talking about when I say them not having Embiid was a trap. It caused us (the team that usually takes more 3s) to take less 3s because we thought we could dominate inside. And it caused them (a team that usually doesnt take enough 3s) to take more because they didnt have their go-to inside presence.
We walked right into the trap by taking only 26 threes, when our avg is 42. Also - we should have expected them to take more 3s wihtout their go to inside guy, and we were ill prepared for that. Some of that has to be on the coach.
Last Edit: May 2, 2023 14:50:12 GMT -5 by drewski6
They may not be better but they do have a completely different game philosophy ... one of pace and spacing that you seldom see when Embiid is the focus of their offense.
Did Mazz have us prepared for a quicker pace (they have younger legs other than Harden/PJ) and prepared to defend the spacing? Why wasn't White in there in Q4 crunch time. He went to the bench at the 8 minute mark and never returned! BTW, that lineup change was the only one Mazz made in Q4:
Celtics lineup change (Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, Malcolm Brogdon, Marcus Smart, Al Horford)
Doc, on the other hand, changed his lineup 7 times in Q4 ...
I think their philosophy of "take what the opponent gives you" was a rope-a-dope by Doc that Mazz was fooled into with such easy scoring in the paint. That would have been fine had he offset their scoring with better defense of the perimeter which meant less Horford and more White ... whatever happened to small ball. Even Grant would have been better!
Doc also went to zone defense that always seems to frustrate our offense.
And finally, TOVs ... 16 Celtic turnovers to what, 6 for Sixers?
UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
last two games white has been shut down. But his D has been missed in those two games. White obviously plays a more important role in this team. Perhaps teams catching up?
His offense matters little when defending threes is what's called for. PJ played 37 mins for Sixers and had no points! He was out there for defense, muscle and leadership. We could have left him alone and double-teamed the hot shooters or just swapped White for Horford who had a terrible night (-17) though Mazz defended leaving him in saying he was one of our best defenders. Maybe earlier this year but not on this night!
Stop the action and slide the curser over till the shot clock hits 0 ... the ball is still in the air not yet in Maxey's fingers. Ok, benefit of doubt to Officials with naked eye but too many of these calls favored the Sixers on our HCA.
Red: "Basketball is like war, in that offensive weapons are developed first, and it always takes a while for the defense to catch up."
Stop the action and slide the curser over till the shot clock hits 0 ... the ball is still in the air not yet in Maxey's fingers. Ok, benefit of doubt to Officials with naked eye but too many of these calls favored the Sixers on our HCA.
last two games white has been shut down. But his D has been missed in those two games. White obviously plays a more important role in this team. Perhaps teams catching up?
His offense matters little when defending threes is what's called for. PJ played 37 mins for Sixers and had no points! He was out there for defense, muscle and leadership. We could have left him alone and double-teamed the hot shooters or just swapped White for Horford who had a terrible night (-17) though Mazz defended leaving him in saying he was one of our best defenders. Maybe earlier this year but not on this night!
Pj beat us with 3x3s a month ago at the end of the game
So Im seeing some passive aggressive shots being taken at me (what else is new?) and some takes that I disagree with.
1. They took away our best weapon the 3. We shot nearly 38.5% from 3, on 10 made off 26 attempts. 38.5% is a fine number, 26 attempts is not. So its not that they took them away, its that we werent going for them at our usual rate. 2. I cant help but think no Embiid - this is why our 3pt attempts were low. At least a large part of the reason. I understand, theyre without Embiid - so lets pound em inside...But when they are red hot from 3, and youre getting 2 on trips down and theyre answering w a 3 - they are scoring 50% more than you on each possession. Thats going to add up and it did. 3. With Embiid in the game, he also takes 3s and youd prob rather have him shooting them than Harden. So, I can see how going Embiid-less was a trap. It made Harden take more shots. ANd it caused us to go inside more. We scored with a very high efficiency. Make after make. But too many 2s and we couldnt keep up with all their 3s. Not saying Embiid is bad, just saying his absence had some hidden benefits for them. 4. I was happy to hear Mazz say we didnt take enough 3s. Cuz we didnt. Makes me also think this go for 2 strategy was not his. Not to say he was great. 5. The reason I wouldnt say Mazz was great (agree w petey) was because of the 3 pt perimeter defense. I have no idea where this notion that defense means stopping the 2 comes from. Its also defending against the 3. Al played drop the whole game (meaning retreat to the basket for rim defense). RWill jsut cant at all cover the perimeter. SO not sure how him playing more or in more crucial minutes would help.
We got 3'd to death. When teams are doing that, no amount of 2s will save you. Generally people here dont like the 3. But nobody is realizing that this may be an ill-informed point of view. Instead, its passive agressive shots at each other and wanting more inside defense/play when we got smoked by the 3.
First and foremost, we need to play better perimeter defense and not give so many open 3s. Secondly, we need to launch more 3s of our own.
A few of those comments are mine. I have not read the entire thread, so I haven't really responded to anyone, passive aggressively or not. Lots of emotions here after a crappy game. I heard some interviews with Mazz on my drive home from work. Seems clueless as to the double team idea. Personally, I think they can do both. They can double team him and NOT double team him. Keeping him guessing is the whole point.
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought, cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives!!
Not so ... the hatch covers weren't closed tightly and because it sat so low in the water with the ship loaded with iron ore it began taking on more water which in turn pushed it lower in the water and so on and so on. Waves were up to 25' from the weather (Nov Wind) but here's a report:
The Story of the Edmund Fitzgerald
Discovery of Fitzgerald Wreckage
The Coast Guard conducted a thorough search in the next several days. On November 14, 1975, a U.S. Navy plane with a special magnetic anomaly detector located a strong contact about 17 miles northwest of Whitefish Point. During the next three days, the Coast Guard cutter Woodrush located two large pieces of wreckage in the same area under about 535 feet of water. A Navy underwater recovery vehicle photographed the wreckage on May 20, 1976. The pictures clearly showed the words "Edmund Fitzgerald" on the stern piece of the sunken ship.
Fitzgerald wreckage - credit is Chicago Tribune
Lifeboat of Fitzgerald - credit is NOAA - VOS program
life ring of Fitzgerald - credit is flickr.com
Since the Fitzgerald never called for help and the ship’s lifeboats were found badly damaged--indicating they were never launched but instead smashed while still secured to the ship-the Coast Guard determined the ship sank abruptly. The Coast Guard concluded these were the primary factors that caused the Fitzgerald to sink:
The Fitzgerald sat very low in the water, increasing the frequency and quantity of water that could flood the deck. The loose hatch covers allowed water spilling onboard to enter the cargo area, causing the ship to sink even lower and take on more and more water. More water could have entered through damage in the hull caused by the possible grounding near Caribou Island. Speculation and Recovery of Fitzgerald Bell
Although there is speculation that the Fitzgerald broke in half on the surface as the bow and stern rode the crests of the two large waves that struck the Anderson earlier, the Coast Guard’s final report suggests the Fitzgerald instead nose dived into a large wave, was unable to recover because it had lost so much buoyancy, and plunged to the bottom of Lake Superior in seconds. As the heavy cargo shifted forward quickly while the Fitzgerald was going down, the bow of the ship hit the bottom with such force that the vessel snapped in two.
Canadian songwriter Gordon Lightfoot immortalized the loss of the Fitzgerald and all 29 aboard with his 1976 hit song "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald." On July 4, 1995, divers recovered the Fitzgerald’s bell from the bottom of Lake Superior, replacing it with a replica engraved with the names of the crew. In a ceremony at the Great Lakes Shipwreck Museum at Whitefish Point on November 10, 1995, the bell was presented to the relatives of the crew and rung 30 times:once for each member of the crew and a final time in honor of all those who have lost their lives at sea. The bell remains at the Shipwreck Museum today.
His offense matters little when defending threes is what's called for. PJ played 37 mins for Sixers and had no points! He was out there for defense, muscle and leadership. We could have left him alone and double-teamed the hot shooters or just swapped White for Horford who had a terrible night (-17) though Mazz defended leaving him in saying he was one of our best defenders. Maybe earlier this year but not on this night!
Pj beat us with 3x3s a month ago at the end of the game
With Harden having 45 (?) I think I'd feel better letting P.J. take those threes than Harden.
Red: "Basketball is like war, in that offensive weapons are developed first, and it always takes a while for the defense to catch up."
In that case you double-team Harden and force him to give it up ... if it goes to P.J. the defense should rotate to him or let him shoot if the others being covered are better shooters.
Argument seems to be that Smart should not switch off with Al or whoever and stick to Harden. Would it matter if we were talking Smart and White rather than Smart and Al? Let them switch if need be and go with two of our better defenders.
Not so ... the hatch covers weren't closed tightly and because it sat so low in the water with the ship loaded with iron ore it began taking on more water which in turn pushed it lower in the water and so on and so on. Waves were up to 25' from the weather (Nov Wind) but here's a report:
The Story of the Edmund Fitzgerald
Discovery of Fitzgerald Wreckage
The Coast Guard conducted a thorough search in the next several days. On November 14, 1975, a U.S. Navy plane with a special magnetic anomaly detector located a strong contact about 17 miles northwest of Whitefish Point. During the next three days, the Coast Guard cutter Woodrush located two large pieces of wreckage in the same area under about 535 feet of water. A Navy underwater recovery vehicle photographed the wreckage on May 20, 1976. The pictures clearly showed the words "Edmund Fitzgerald" on the stern piece of the sunken ship.
Fitzgerald wreckage - credit is Chicago Tribune
Lifeboat of Fitzgerald - credit is NOAA - VOS program
life ring of Fitzgerald - credit is flickr.com
Since the Fitzgerald never called for help and the ship’s lifeboats were found badly damaged--indicating they were never launched but instead smashed while still secured to the ship-the Coast Guard determined the ship sank abruptly. The Coast Guard concluded these were the primary factors that caused the Fitzgerald to sink:
The Fitzgerald sat very low in the water, increasing the frequency and quantity of water that could flood the deck. The loose hatch covers allowed water spilling onboard to enter the cargo area, causing the ship to sink even lower and take on more and more water. More water could have entered through damage in the hull caused by the possible grounding near Caribou Island. Speculation and Recovery of Fitzgerald Bell
Although there is speculation that the Fitzgerald broke in half on the surface as the bow and stern rode the crests of the two large waves that struck the Anderson earlier, the Coast Guard’s final report suggests the Fitzgerald instead nose dived into a large wave, was unable to recover because it had lost so much buoyancy, and plunged to the bottom of Lake Superior in seconds. As the heavy cargo shifted forward quickly while the Fitzgerald was going down, the bow of the ship hit the bottom with such force that the vessel snapped in two.
Canadian songwriter Gordon Lightfoot immortalized the loss of the Fitzgerald and all 29 aboard with his 1976 hit song "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald." On July 4, 1995, divers recovered the Fitzgerald’s bell from the bottom of Lake Superior, replacing it with a replica engraved with the names of the crew. In a ceremony at the Great Lakes Shipwreck Museum at Whitefish Point on November 10, 1995, the bell was presented to the relatives of the crew and rung 30 times:once for each member of the crew and a final time in honor of all those who have lost their lives at sea. The bell remains at the Shipwreck Museum today.
So Im seeing some passive aggressive shots being taken at me (what else is new?) and some takes that I disagree with.
1. They took away our best weapon the 3. We shot nearly 38.5% from 3, on 10 made off 26 attempts. 38.5% is a fine number, 26 attempts is not. So its not that they took them away, its that we werent going for them at our usual rate. 2. I cant help but think no Embiid - this is why our 3pt attempts were low. At least a large part of the reason. I understand, theyre without Embiid - so lets pound em inside...But when they are red hot from 3, and youre getting 2 on trips down and theyre answering w a 3 - they are scoring 50% more than you on each possession. Thats going to add up and it did. 3. With Embiid in the game, he also takes 3s and youd prob rather have him shooting them than Harden. So, I can see how going Embiid-less was a trap. It made Harden take more shots. ANd it caused us to go inside more. We scored with a very high efficiency. Make after make. But too many 2s and we couldnt keep up with all their 3s. Not saying Embiid is bad, just saying his absence had some hidden benefits for them. 4. I was happy to hear Mazz say we didnt take enough 3s. Cuz we didnt. Makes me also think this go for 2 strategy was not his. Not to say he was great. 5. The reason I wouldnt say Mazz was great (agree w petey) was because of the 3 pt perimeter defense. I have no idea where this notion that defense means stopping the 2 comes from. Its also defending against the 3. Al played drop the whole game (meaning retreat to the basket for rim defense). RWill jsut cant at all cover the perimeter. SO not sure how him playing more or in more crucial minutes would help.
We got 3'd to death. When teams are doing that, no amount of 2s will save you. Generally people here dont like the 3. But nobody is realizing that this may be an ill-informed point of view. Instead, its passive agressive shots at each other and wanting more inside defense/play when we got smoked by the 3.
First and foremost, we need to play better perimeter defense and not give so many open 3s. Secondly, we need to launch more 3s of our own.
A few of those comments are mine. I have not read the entire thread, so I haven't really responded to anyone, passive aggressively or not. Lots of emotions here after a crappy game. I heard some interviews with Mazz on my drive home from work. Seems clueless as to the double team idea. Personally, I think they can do both. They can double team him and NOT double team him. Keeping him guessing is the whole point.
Ive never seen you be passive aggressive, so that point wasnt for you. Its true that you said you wanted RWill out their at crunch, but Im not sure that would helped game 1. Because , like Admin said, Al could not rotate quick enough or get around the screen quick enough to contest the quick 3 pt pops - and he hurt us there. RWill doesnt even try to defend the perimeter.
I would have tried going very small with Grant at the 5. Hes not better than Al (or RWill) but hes better than both at guarding quick shooters.
But if Embiid comes back, gameplanning for what they tried to do in game 1 - isnt going to help much - because as Admin states - their offensive strategy is different when Embiid is out there.
We had 66 pts in the paint - thats a ton. We were +10 in rebounds. So we won the inside battle. But unfortunately, when you win the inside battle but lose the outside battle - youll lose more games than youll win.
Its tricky to gameplan for game 2 when we dont know if Embiid is playing.
A few of those comments are mine. I have not read the entire thread, so I haven't really responded to anyone, passive aggressively or not. Lots of emotions here after a crappy game. I heard some interviews with Mazz on my drive home from work. Seems clueless as to the double team idea. Personally, I think they can do both. They can double team him and NOT double team him. Keeping him guessing is the whole point.
Ive never seen you be passive aggressive, so that point wasnt for you. Its true that you said you wanted RWill out their at crunch, but Im not sure that would helped game 1. Because , like Admin said, Al could not rotate quick enough or get around the screen quick enough to contest the quick 3 pt pops - and he hurt us there. RWill doesnt even try to defend the perimeter.
I would have tried going very small with Grant at the 5. Hes not better than Al (or RWill) but hes better than both at guarding quick shooters.
But if Embiid comes back, gameplanning for what they tried to do in game 1 - isnt going to help much - because as Admin states - their offensive strategy is different when Embiid is out there.
We had 66 pts in the paint - thats a ton. We were +10 in rebounds. So we won the inside battle. But unfortunately, when you win the inside battle but lose the outside battle - youll lose more games than youll win.
Its tricky to gameplan for game 2 when we dont know if Embiid is playing.
66 points in the point is alot. We actually scored to win. We just did not defend.
A few of those comments are mine. I have not read the entire thread, so I haven't really responded to anyone, passive aggressively or not. Lots of emotions here after a crappy game. I heard some interviews with Mazz on my drive home from work. Seems clueless as to the double team idea. Personally, I think they can do both. They can double team him and NOT double team him. Keeping him guessing is the whole point.
Ive never seen you be passive aggressive, so that point wasnt for you. Its true that you said you wanted RWill out their at crunch, but Im not sure that would helped game 1. Because , like Admin said, Al could not rotate quick enough or get around the screen quick enough to contest the quick 3 pt pops - and he hurt us there. RWill doesnt even try to defend the perimeter.
I would have tried going very small with Grant at the 5. Hes not better than Al (or RWill) but hes better than both at guarding quick shooters.
But if Embiid comes back, gameplanning for what they tried to do in game 1 - isnt going to help much - because as Admin states - their offensive strategy is different when Embiid is out there.
We had 66 pts in the paint - thats a ton. We were +10 in rebounds. So we won the inside battle. But unfortunately, when you win the inside battle but lose the outside battle - youll lose more games than youll win.
Its tricky to gameplan for game 2 when we dont know if Embiid is playing.
I agree in theory. However, I think Grant would need to have been more in the flow of the game than just putting him out at the end. I don't know. We just need to be better in Game 2
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought, cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives!!
Post by hedleylamarr on May 2, 2023 18:50:22 GMT -5
THEN, there's this: The NBA’s L2M report said that James Harden should’ve been called for a foul for inadvertently tripping Jayson Tatum on this drive.
This miss let Harden get out in transition and kick it to Maxey, who got a 3 point play that flipped the game in crunch time.
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought, cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives!!
Post by hedleylamarr on May 2, 2023 18:52:11 GMT -5
Cameron Tabatabaie: Celtics announce Marcus Smart is QUESTIONABLE for Wednesday’s Game 2 with a chest contusion – via Twitter CTabatabaie Top Rumors, Injuries, Marcus Smart, Boston Celtics
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought, cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives!!
Shams Charania @shamscharania Philadelphia 76ers’ Joel Embiid has won the 2022-23 NBA MVP award.
They should just use him differently.
When I first saw him at KU I told my dad he had something like kareem. Just because he can shoot ok doesn't mean you have to turn him into a guard. I still believe in the kareem/shaq model of passing out of the post.
Anyway, he shouldn't be facing up every-other play and neither should Giannis. The league falls in love with this 7ft guard thing and it rarely works out. Ben simmons for example.