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Post by drewski6 on Aug 24, 2020 14:27:15 GMT -5
I believe Tatum is better than Siakam. But I just don't see that huge disparity as some suggest here. When I think of a young guy being significantly better than another in a very short time, I would say Luka over Tatum or Siakam as examples of one player completely separating himself from other young players. The divide between Luka and those guys is larger than the divide between the two. I'd love a 4 or 5 game series won by the Celtics. I just don't see it happening. Thats fair.
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Post by hedleylamarr on Aug 24, 2020 14:35:52 GMT -5
Celtics in 6. But this is a very good team. Gasol and Ibaka come off the books after this year. Lowry and Siakam will be the two left. FVF also comes off the books, and wouldn't he look good in green, as our sniper?
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Post by sfbosfan on Aug 24, 2020 14:51:42 GMT -5
I keep reading some opinions that the Raptors will not be difficult to beat. Then, some hope the Clippers will beat the Lakers but some say we can beat the 2 man team Lakers. Are you that say we’ll be in the finals forgetting that last year we swept the Pacers and then won the 1st game against the Bucks and then we got swept. So, don’t you feel that before we think about the Lakers, beating Milwaukee will requite a tremendous effort as we face the big man syndrome again. Yup, I know we did Embiid but the Bucks have better supporting players. Lopez is playing out of his tree. I wish we had picked him up...and cheap too! Good in the paint and as a 3pt shooter too.
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Post by elvissurfs on Aug 24, 2020 14:52:43 GMT -5
Epic! Good insights/opinion...basketball is back!...Go Celts!
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Post by petey62 on Aug 24, 2020 14:53:09 GMT -5
sfbosfan, we play Toronto in the semis.
Milwaukee? Why are we thinking about the Bucks?
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Post by drewski6 on Aug 24, 2020 14:53:53 GMT -5
Lets break it down cuz its fun...
Handle: Advantage Tatum. You see this when he has the ball in the wing, when he does that move when he dribbles the ball out wide away from his body. Its a good move, cuz from there he can go around you or pull the ball back in and shoot over you. Siakam can handle well for a PF and goes by a lot of guys...But he can get sloppy.
Passing: Advantage Siakam. Tatum is an underrated passer, Siakam is a very good passer. There is a difference.
Offensive IQ: Siakam. When Tatum gets hot, he sometimes falls in love with his own shot. Which isnt necessarily a bad thing, cuz who would you rather have shooting than a hot Tatum. But Siakam sees the court so well, and will always take the highest percentage play.
Creating their own shot: Tatum. This is where he begins to pull away. He can beat anybody one on one. Siakam cant.
Catch-and-shoot: Tatum. Siakam is very good here, Tatum is just slightly wetter. Both make the shot when the game is on the line.
Defending the post: Siakam - he just has 30 lbs on Tatum. He's a rock. You cant back him up.
Athleticism: Siakam.
Rebounding: Siakam, but its closer than one may think. Siakam gets a lot of boards because he plays w Gasol who is out at the perimeter a lot. Tatum usually has to compete w Gordon, Brown, Theiss who are all good rebounders in their own right. But that aside, Siakam has higher ups and is stronger to pull down the board. But Jayson has those giant shoulders which creates space.
Defending the passing lane: Tatum. I dont know what his wingspan is, but it often feels like its 11". He anticipates so well, is quick with those arms, and is long.
Overall: Tatum (in my opinion). Because he can beat you in more ways on the offensive side of the ball.
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Post by petey62 on Aug 24, 2020 15:36:40 GMT -5
drewski6, very good points about two players playing in the Celtics vs Raptors semi-final playoff series. I personally don't think this matchup is going to be as compelling as others may think.
What is going to be more compelling is the overall team play of the Celtics and Raptors. Who is going to force the other to play their game?
These are two very good TEAMS with a lot of individual talent. Toronto will boast the experience of having veteran players who have been through this but advantage Celtics with the better individual players in Kemba, Tatum and Brown.
But Toronto has proven all year that this is a team game and they play very well together as a team.
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Post by sfbosfan on Aug 24, 2020 15:47:48 GMT -5
sfbosfan, we play Toronto in the semis. Milwaukee? Why are we thinking about the Bucks? I know we play Toronto and I did say many feel we should win the series so there was talk skipping ahead to the NBA finals and the Clippers beating the Lakers but many said we should accept the challenge & beat the Lakers. But, I meant after Toronto before we could think about the Lakers, Milwaukee would be a tremendous obstacle!
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Post by petey62 on Aug 24, 2020 16:16:34 GMT -5
Sixers have fired Brett Brown......
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Post by hedleylamarr on Aug 24, 2020 16:30:01 GMT -5
Sixers have fired Brett Brown...... Yeah, I called that one. Too bad, he went through the whole "process" thing, and now he's the scapegoat!
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Post by drewski6 on Aug 24, 2020 16:40:46 GMT -5
drewski6, very good points about two players playing in the Celtics vs Raptors semi-final playoff series. I personally don't think this matchup is going to be as compelling as others may think. What is going to be more compelling is the overall team play of the Celtics and Raptors. Who is going to force the other to play their game? These are two very good TEAMS with a lot of individual talent. Toronto will boast the experience of having veteran players who have been through this but advantage Celtics with the better individual players in Kemba, Tatum and Brown. But Toronto has proven all year that this is a team game and they play very well together as a team. I was thinking that when we were conversing a bit earlier. Im not sure if I added it to one of my posts - but I cant believe Im saying this , but... We all love team basketball. Its a thing of beauty to watch. But if this particular series becomes a 1-on-1 fest....Almost like "take your turn" basketball...So like Tatum would have his turn 1 on 1 against Siakam, then Siakam gets his turn against Brown, then Kemba gets his turn against Lowry, then FVF gets his turn against Smart. Like if it becomes a series of 1-on-1...That favors us. I agree that its not, at all, an easy matchup if its team basketball. They play very well together. Almost look like a European national team giving an American national team trouble. Our fourth best player is better than their best, but they play a team game and are surprisingly competitive against superior athletes.
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Post by cole on Aug 24, 2020 17:04:46 GMT -5
drewski6, very good points about two players playing in the Celtics vs Raptors semi-final playoff series. I personally don't think this matchup is going to be as compelling as others may think. What is going to be more compelling is the overall team play of the Celtics and Raptors. Who is going to force the other to play their game? These are two very good TEAMS with a lot of individual talent. Toronto will boast the experience of having veteran players who have been through this but advantage Celtics with the better individual players in Kemba, Tatum and Brown. But Toronto has proven all year that this is a team game and they play very well together as a team. I was thinking that when we were conversing a bit earlier. Im not sure if I added it to one of my posts - but I cant believe Im saying this , but... We all love team basketball. Its a thing of beauty to watch. But if this particular series becomes a 1-on-1 fest....Almost like "take your turn" basketball...So like Tatum would have his turn 1 on 1 against Siakam, then Siakam gets his turn against Brown, then Kemba gets his turn against Lowry, then FVF gets his turn against Smart. Like if it becomes a series of 1-on-1...That favors us. I agree that its not, at all, an easy matchup if its team basketball. They play very well together. Almost look like a European national team giving an American national team trouble. Our fourth best player is better than their best, but they play a team game and are surprisingly competitive against superior athletes. Btw drew, and a lot of announcers get this wrong, its Van Vleet. I know this because i half live in wichita Greta Van Fleet is a zep copy band but still good
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Post by drewski6 on Aug 24, 2020 17:18:44 GMT -5
One other thing I want to ask - and Im honestly asking....
How long does a player have to be consistent to shed the inconsistent label? Cuz thats relevant when talking about Tatum. Im struggling to put my finger on the exact reason why - but I just have a hard time believing that 2020 postseason Tatum is like 2017 postseason Tatum. 2017 postseason Tatum is the Tatum who people outside of Bos generally imagine Tatum to be. Can be very very good, cannot be very very good night-in-night-out.
Note: I am using 2017 Tatum as a contrast not because it was so long ago but because that was the second best Tatum. Current Tatum is the best Tatum. But 2017 post-season Tatum was better than 2018, 2019 Tatum. What about 2020 reg season Tatum? Well, thats what Im getting at. Even in 2020, Tatum was not consistent. He was ice-cold from the floor, with bad shot selection until early Feb. Even Fierce was thinking about potentially getting nervous if it continued. Even in Feb/Mar it wasnt every night = the same guy. We've never seen that Tatum. Consistent Tatum. So the only thing you can knock him for anymore is the consistency. You use to be able to knock the D (he got better), you use to be able to knock the handle (he got better), you use to be able to knock the aggression (he got so-much-better at it that it became a shot-selection problem, which leads me to... You use to be able to knock the shot selection (its still not great, but hes makes everything so who cares)...So I guess the only thing left to knock him for is the consistency.
And thats prob the single most often answer you would hear - if you asked: "whats Tatums biggest flaw?" Consistency. But like ....how do you know if Tatum is playing awesome because he's inconsistent but hot right now vs playing awesome because he's shed the inconsistency and is now just like this now?
I think postseason Tatum has arrived at "like this always." Im not an intuition guy. Im a back it up with supporting examples/stats guy. So this is out of character for me, but I honestly think this level is now his default (postseason) level. I dont think he's on a hot streak, I think this is the "new normal". I might be jumping the gun on that. But like how do long does he have to be consistent to go from "he's inconsistent, but hot right now" to "he's just like this now." Because if the answer is: "X of amount of time" - then he's prob "inconsistent but hot right now" because he was inconsistent even this year...But if the answer is "you'll know it when you see it." Then he's arrived, because Im seeing it.
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Post by drewski6 on Aug 24, 2020 17:19:05 GMT -5
I was thinking that when we were conversing a bit earlier. Im not sure if I added it to one of my posts - but I cant believe Im saying this , but... We all love team basketball. Its a thing of beauty to watch. But if this particular series becomes a 1-on-1 fest....Almost like "take your turn" basketball...So like Tatum would have his turn 1 on 1 against Siakam, then Siakam gets his turn against Brown, then Kemba gets his turn against Lowry, then FVF gets his turn against Smart. Like if it becomes a series of 1-on-1...That favors us. I agree that its not, at all, an easy matchup if its team basketball. They play very well together. Almost look like a European national team giving an American national team trouble. Our fourth best player is better than their best, but they play a team game and are surprisingly competitive against superior athletes. Btw drew, and a lot of announcers get this wrong, its Van Vleet. I know this because i half live in wichita Greta Van Fleet is a zep copy band but still good Love GVF.
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Post by cole on Aug 24, 2020 17:26:56 GMT -5
Btw drew, and a lot of announcers get this wrong, its Van Vleet. I know this because i half live in wichita Greta Van Fleet is a zep copy band but still good Love GVF. My son is really into them
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Post by fierce on Aug 24, 2020 18:24:54 GMT -5
Pete is always on the conservative side.
Just like in the 2017 playoffs when Pete thought we couldn't beat the Wizards in the 2nd round.
That was the year IT was an MVP candidate.
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Post by fierce on Aug 24, 2020 18:30:39 GMT -5
Maybe some of the fans here still think that what we have is the Celtics of last March or February.
Jaylen Brown has improved a lot since March.
Jayson Tatum, like what drewski said, has taken his game to the next level.
Again, the Celtics team we're seeing in the bubble is not the same Celtics team we last saw in March.
So I'm not expecting this series to go 7 games.
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Post by fierce on Aug 24, 2020 18:39:46 GMT -5
I haven't even mentioned Kemba yet.
Kemba is playing amazing basketball in the playoffs.
He has learned how to play within the system.
So he's not jacking up unnecessary 3s anymore.
Kemba will just blow by any of the Raptor guards.
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Post by petey62 on Aug 24, 2020 18:43:11 GMT -5
Pete is always on the conservative side. Just like in the 2017 playoffs when Pete thought we couldn't beat the Wizards in the 2nd round. That was the year IT was an MVP candidate. Fierce please don't misrepresent me. If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. If you cannot do that, I respectfully ask that you not quote me at all. Thanks brother. I knew we could beat the Wizards but I SAID we'd beat them ONLY because we had home court advantage and that we would win the games in Boston, which was the case. You made a blanket statement that whoever wins the 3-point battle will win the games and that did not happen for one or two of those games. I told you that the Celtics would not win in DC which we did not. But I never ever said we would lose that series. Don't tell HALF the story. Tell the whole story, accurately. Please don't let me call you out on something like this again, respectfully.
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Post by fierce on Aug 24, 2020 18:54:41 GMT -5
Pete is always on the conservative side. Just like in the 2017 playoffs when Pete thought we couldn't beat the Wizards in the 2nd round. That was the year IT was an MVP candidate. Fierce please don't misrepresent me. If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. If you cannot do that, I respectfully ask that you not quote me at all. Thanks brother. I knew we could beat the Wizards but I SAID we'd beat them ONLY because we had home court advantage and that we would win the games in Boston, which was the case. You made a blanket statement that whoever wins the 3-point battle will win the games and that did not happen for one or two of those games. I told you that the Celtics would not win in DC which we did not. But I never ever said we would lose that series. Don't tell HALF the story. Tell the whole story, accurately. Please don't let me call you out on something like this again, respectfully. You keep saying you hope I'm right, but you also said I don't know what I'm talking about when I say Toronto will not be a problem. I don't know what I'm talking about?
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Post by fierce on Aug 24, 2020 19:03:57 GMT -5
Fierce, I know it was against the Nets, but are you still in the camp that the Celtics have nothing to worry about with the Raptors? I believe I'm an unbiased, realistic poster and I honestly don't agree with your assessment that we will have no trouble with Toronto. I hope you're right but I'm not so sure you know what you're talking about.
WHY should the Celtics not worry about Toronto? And please don't say Lowry's ankle injury. I see a dogfight of a 7 game series. You're saying I don't know what I'm talking about while you're hedging? Regular season record shows the Celts won 2 out of 3 before the pandemic. And the Celts beat Toronto easily again in the bubble. I have evidence that the Celts are clearly better than Toronto because this season the Celts won 3 out of 4 against Toronto. What you have is just your assessment. It is very clear that the Celts have more talent and they won the regular season series 3-1 against Toronto. And you don't want me to call you out when you're telling everybody that I don't know what I'm talking about?
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Post by fierce on Aug 24, 2020 19:29:03 GMT -5
To those who think Siakam is just as good as Tatum, just look at Siakam's stats against Brooklyn.
Siakam is just shooting 40.6% from the field.
They're playing a Nets team composed of 2nd stringers and 3rd stringers.
Not once did Siakam shoot over 50% in 4 games against the Nets.
Maybe Siakam and Tatum were on the same level before this season started, but right now Tatum is light years ahead of Siakam in terms of star power.
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Post by petey62 on Aug 24, 2020 19:43:15 GMT -5
Fierce, I know it was against the Nets, but are you still in the camp that the Celtics have nothing to worry about with the Raptors? I believe I'm an unbiased, realistic poster and I honestly don't agree with your assessment that we will have no trouble with Toronto. I hope you're right but I'm not so sure you know what you're talking about.
WHY should the Celtics not worry about Toronto? And please don't say Lowry's ankle injury. I see a dogfight of a 7 game series. You're saying I don't know what I'm talking about while you're hedging? Regular season record shows the Celts won 2 out of 3 before the pandemic. And the Celts beat Toronto easily again in the bubble. I have evidence that the Celts are clearly better than Toronto because this season the Celts won 3 out of 4 against Toronto. What you have is just your assessment. It is very clear that the Celts have more talent and they won the regular season series 3-1 against Toronto. And you don't want me to call you out when you're telling everybody that I don't know what I'm talking about? Fierce, Philly won the season series against us but we swept them in the playoffs. They didn't have Simmons and we didn't have Hayward. Nevertheless, we swept them after losing the season series. Who won a regular season series means nothing. Also, I can disagree with you and say I hope you're right. I hope we do sweep Toronto or win with very little trouble. Realistically I doubt that is how the series will go. But I can hope you're right. I just don't believe you will be right. But again, to re-visit your comment about the 2017 Wizards series, are we cool on you quoting me (misquoting me) moving forward? Please acknowledge that. Love the banter back and forth but it's not cool to just misquote me like you tend to do. So, are we clear on that moving forward, respectfully?
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Post by petey62 on Aug 24, 2020 19:48:16 GMT -5
Fierce, we can disagree on what we believe will happen in a series. I love the back and forth.
But, again, please stop misquoting me or crediting me with inaccurate posts.
Let's enjoy this but let's not fabricate what I said back in 2017, okay.
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Post by elvissurfs on Aug 24, 2020 20:10:26 GMT -5
One other thing I want to ask - and Im honestly asking.... How long does a player have to be consistent to shed the inconsistent label? Cuz thats relevant when talking about Tatum. Im struggling to put my finger on the exact reason why - but I just have a hard time believing that 2020 postseason Tatum is like 2017 postseason Tatum. 2017 postseason Tatum is the Tatum who people outside of Bos generally imagine Tatum to be. Can be very very good, cannot be very very good night-in-night-out. Note: I am using 2017 Tatum as a contrast not because it was so long ago but because that was the second best Tatum. Current Tatum is the best Tatum. But 2017 post-season Tatum was better than 2018, 2019 Tatum. What about 2020 reg season Tatum? Well, thats what Im getting at. Even in 2020, Tatum was not consistent. He was ice-cold from the floor, with bad shot selection until early Feb. Even Fierce was thinking about potentially getting nervous if it continued. Even in Feb/Mar it wasnt every night = the same guy. We've never seen that Tatum. Consistent Tatum. So the only thing you can knock him for anymore is the consistency. You use to be able to knock the D (he got better), you use to be able to knock the handle (he got better), you use to be able to knock the aggression (he got so-much-better at it that it became a shot-selection problem, which leads me to... You use to be able to knock the shot selection (its still not great, but hes makes everything so who cares)...So I guess the only thing left to knock him for is the consistency. And thats prob the single most often answer you would hear - if you asked: "whats Tatums biggest flaw?" Consistency. But like ....how do you know if Tatum is playing awesome because he's inconsistent but hot right now vs playing awesome because he's shed the inconsistency and is now just like this now? I think postseason Tatum has arrived at "like this always." Im not an intuition guy. Im a back it up with supporting examples/stats guy. So this is out of character for me, but I honestly think this level is now his default (postseason) level. I dont think he's on a hot streak, I think this is the "new normal". I might be jumping the gun on that. But like how do long does he have to be consistent to go from "he's inconsistent, but hot right now" to "he's just like this now." Because if the answer is: "X of amount of time" - then he's prob "inconsistent but hot right now" because he was inconsistent even this year...But if the answer is "you'll know it when you see it." Then he's arrived, because Im seeing it. I dont know and my mind is boggled, but I am glad you and others are back...
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