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Post by Admin on Mar 2, 2023 13:08:08 GMT -5
Celtics’ double big starting lineup getting back up to speed: ‘Like riding a bike’
By Souichi Terada | sterada@masslive.com
BOSTON — With the Celtics at full strength coming out of the All-Star break for three out of their past four games, they have finally been able to unleash their double big starting lineup for consistent minutes. That same five-man group caused havoc throughout the league last season as the Celtics were the best team in the NBA in the second half of the season.
The results haven’t been there yet as the group has played just nine games together. It’s a lineup that features Marcus Smart, Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, Robert Williams III and Al Horford, leaning into their size advantage while still being able to space the floor.
But at this point in the season, the Celtics aren’t completely comfortable playing with each other yet. It’s not necessarily a chemistry issue, but just re-learning how to play with the togetherness needed to dominate.
“We’ve been comfortable with each other,” Williams said after the C’s beat the Cavaliers 117-113. “We’ve just gotta get back in a rhythm a little bit. Like riding a bike. Play a couple more games and we chilling. Get them under our belt and figure out how we can bring the energy for the whole team.”
The double big lineup unlocked the Celtics last season when they boasted the best defense in the league. In the extremely small sample size of 68 minutes, the group has a negative of -8.1 as it has struggled in recent games. Considering the sample size, though, there aren’t many conclusions that can be taken away yet.
The five-man group features strong defenders across the board, including last year’s Defensive Player of the Year in Smart. But when the Celtics turned their defense up was when they let Williams roam around as a help defender, letting Horford taking on the more traditional big man matchup. That’s where Williams becomes so dangerous as his shot-blocking abilities are an important part of the equation.
“Rob is such a big piece of what we do and his energy was just great tonight,” Horford said. “Defensively, he was very active and just him being on the floor just changes how teams view us. It makes them hesitant to attack the paint and for me it’s just been fun playing alongside him and continuing to watch him to develop and get more confident.”
On the bright side for the Celtics, they still have 19 games left in the season to continue tinkering with chemistry and other parts of their rotation. Williams missed the start of the year after knee surgery, but the big man appears to be at full strength as the Celtics have leaned on him for extended minutes when he is available.
But the goal is still the playoffs as the C’s eye another Finals run. That means ensuring both Horford and Williams are both fresh come the postseason. In the meantime, the Celtics will look to continue smoothing out any wrinkles that comes from what was their dominant starting five last season.
“It’s a new year,” Brown said. “But when we’re all on the same page, we’re all healthy, I feel like we’ve got a good chance to win any ballgame. So I think the focus is just being healthy, taking care of your body, and just coming out and playing games. Getting chemistry, but building the right habits. I think that’s important, especially moving toward the playoffs, just gotta keep moving and building the right habits.”
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Post by kdp59 on Mar 8, 2023 8:31:32 GMT -5
Rob is more like the "time suck" than timelord now and likely will be this way the rest of his short career. Best to play him in short stints of 4-5 min each quarter and see if he can go all out in those short stints.
we fans have all seen Rob has been limited all year, I guess the Celtics staff didn't see it for some reason.
If Mazz continues the idiocy of two big with Rob limited, then he's not up to the task.
This team has 2 all-star wings and 3 NBA starting guards. Mazz need to go with the way this team is built and get a rotation set for the playoffs with that in mind.
the likely playoff rotation will be Horford, Tatum, Brown, White, Smart as starters
with Brogdon, Grant and Rob (we hope!) off the bench.
Muscala, Blake, Kornet will be ZERO help come the playoffs.
Despite Wyc talking like a big man about spending more at the trade deadline, the over all team salary is LOWER right now than before Vonleh was shipped out.
Going cheap at the trade deadline by only getting Muscala was a mistake we all see now and not signing a buy out vet (even though they had as much as $3.2M with the DPE to use) has been almost criminal. especially for a team that thinks they have a shot at a ring.
I think there is a better chance this team gets knocked out BEFORE the east finals , then than they win the NBA championship now.
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Post by drewski6 on Mar 8, 2023 9:28:40 GMT -5
Good discussion. One thing in the article - I agree with - is that Horford should be the Center defensively. His metrics when protecting the rim show he's a much better defender there - then when out on the perimeter and having to roam. It makes sense given his age. So the question is - is Rob the best we can do when we already have Horford protecting the rim? Well some pros and cons
Pros
1. Offensively, they can swap - having Horford at the perimeter with RWill down low to gobble the offensive rebounds. SO there is decent fit here
2. Robs size and athleticism allows him to contest shots
3. It needs to be considered the success we had last year w the lineup
Cons
1. Offensively - IF we are using Al as a shooter and Rob down low - is this really better than [insert another player] and Al down low? Al has superior post moves to Rob - who really only contributes (offensively) on put backs. There is a chance we could be getting more here
2. With Rob as a roamer, there is a good chance he could get switched onto a slasher with open room
3. With Rob and Al in the game - we are more turnover prone and less equipped to get transition buckets. The pace slows down. Earlier this year, we were pushing the pace more (before RWill came back)
My opinion - I dont think the double big is ideal. I dont think its our best 5. But that doesnt mean we should abandon it completely. I think its fine for 15 mins / game, but I dont like running the whole game w/ this structure.
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Post by Admin on Mar 8, 2023 10:19:05 GMT -5
The only problem with Al at the 5 is his rebounding. He's never been known as a very good one when it comes to that. I'm fine with his defense down low but he would seem to be a better option at the 4 where he fits well as a perimeter shooter and can defend (at the hip if you will) wings and bigs. It's his natural position. Then who is the 5 when Rob can't be in there especially if the double big will be the norm? Maybe C by committee using Muscalla, Kornet & Griffin works but I'd like to see one be the regular guy so decide by the POs which of Muscalla or Kornet works best with Al. I'll bet it Moose but does he have the stamina for the minutes required? As for Grant ... keep him at the 4 as Al's primary backup.
* Sure could have used Nerlens Noel (Sixers 10 day contract) at the 5 when I think of Al at the 4 and who can replace Rob at the 5
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Post by dfries13 on Mar 8, 2023 10:45:32 GMT -5
The only problem with Al at the 5 is his rebounding. He's never been known as a very good one when it comes to that. I'm fine with his defense down low but he would seem to be a better option at the 4 where he fits well as a perimeter shooter and can defend (at the hip if you will) wings and bigs. It's his natural position. Then who is the 5 when Rob can't be in there especially if the double big will be the norm? Maybe C by committee using Muscalla, Kornet & Griffin works but I'd like to see one be the regular guy so decide by the POs which of Muscalla or Kornet works best with Al. I'll bet it Moose but does he have the stamina for the minutes required? As for Grant ... keep him at the 4 as Al's primary backup.
* Sure could have used Nerlens Noel (Sixers 10 day contract) at the 5 when I think of Al at the 4 and who can replace Rob at the 5
Right on the rebounding and we have no rim protection. Only 15 minutes a game huh max? Rob has played a grand total of 19 total minutes in the last three games and we lost all 3 Want the real fact? We can't win without Rob playing at least 30 to 40% of the time. Want another fact? We don't have one real fuckin player who can replace Rob.. What i will agree on? Rob can't be counted on ... And..... Just add some more games and minutes for Al and watch him fizzle out from fatigue the remainder of the year. |
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Post by dfries13 on Mar 8, 2023 14:06:17 GMT -5
Nerlens Noel on joining the #Nets: "This is already a Top 10 defense I'm pretty sure, especially with what they have, so I’m going to put it over the top. And how ever coach sees fit into what position he wants to put me in, I’ll accept regardless." #NBA
IDK but i think Stevens didn't talk with Noel.
All we needed Noel to do is crash the boards, defend and box out bigs for 12 to 15 minutes a game
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Post by Admin on Mar 8, 2023 14:18:30 GMT -5
Nerlens Noel on joining the #Nets: "This is already a Top 10 defense I'm pretty sure, especially with what they have, so I’m going to put it over the top. And how ever coach sees fit into what position he wants to put me in, I’ll accept regardless." #NBA IDK but i think Stevens didn't talk with Noel.All we needed Noel to do is crash the boards, defend and box out bigs for 12 to 15 minutes a game
If Brad didn't talk to him that's a problem, and why not? We were all set sitting on that DPE?
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Post by dfries13 on Mar 8, 2023 14:31:44 GMT -5
Nerlens Noel on joining the #Nets: "This is already a Top 10 defense I'm pretty sure, especially with what they have, so I’m going to put it over the top. And how ever coach sees fit into what position he wants to put me in, I’ll accept regardless." #NBA IDK but i think Stevens didn't talk with Noel.All we needed Noel to do is crash the boards, defend and box out bigs for 12 to 15 minutes a game
If Brad didn't talk to him that's a problem, and why not? We were all set sitting on that DPE?
Ok lets use simple logic here. Noel grew up Lowell Mass.. Noel stands a better shot at a ring with Boston than the Nets. Noel stands to get as much playing time here as in BKL with Rob out and the Stature of Liberty defense playing Kornet . Noel could have probably been signed cheap for next year he's not expecting a big payday or a long contract.. Take all of this in account and the verdict is? |
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Post by kdp59 on Mar 8, 2023 14:54:33 GMT -5
CHEAP
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Post by kdp59 on Mar 8, 2023 14:58:18 GMT -5
interesting stuff on Grant form the Atlantic
Since he first donned a sleeve against Memphis on Feb. 12, Grant Williams has been struggling with a ligament strain in his shooting elbow exacerbated by inflammation in the surrounding muscle, league sources with knowledge of the situation told The Athletic. They were granted anonymity because they were not authorized to speak on the record. 4 hours ago – via Jared Weiss @ The Athletic
Williams had to stop lifting heavy weights for several weeks, though he returned to his normal routine before re-aggravating the injury in practice before Sunday’s double-overtime loss to the Knicks in which he played 45 minutes. According to those sources, throughout this injury, Williams has experienced discomfort turning or grabbing with his right hand. 4 hours ago – via Jared Weiss @ The Athletic
When the season began, Grant Williams had turned down an extension offer and was flexing his newfound ability to attack closeouts with creativity. He was in the best groove of his career, looking like a flush market was waiting for him in free agency. But things have gone south since, coincidentally timed with a report Williams is seeking up to $20 million annually, per Marc Stein. That figure is considered premature and a target number has not been established internally yet as he has focused on the season, league sources with knowledge of Williams’ thinking told The Athletic. Williams’ representatives and the team discussed an extension before the season that could have reached the low-$50 million range over four seasons but could not agree on the guarantee structure, league sources with knowledge of the negotiations said. 4 hours ago – via Jared Weiss @ The Athletic
so that tells me he was willing to sign in the $13-4M range then, but wanted it fully guaranteed . Boston wanted either partial guarantee or non-guaranteed year or maybe team options.
was the $20M per year stuff just made up then?
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Post by dfries13 on Mar 8, 2023 15:41:06 GMT -5
When Kornet was guaranteed that was the final word . ..Stevens made that choice WYC is paying Stevens many millions on his ironclad contract Steven's wife drew up.. Now hiring MAZZ? That was unquestionably cheap. |
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Post by Admin on Mar 8, 2023 15:45:55 GMT -5
CHEAP ... LOL! Keep playing that excuse cuz pretty soon we'll all be forced to agree. Right now I'm hopeful that Brad doesn't like Noel as much as somebody else on his wish list. I just hope whoever it is has been contacted and agreed to come here but why hasn't he been signed already unless he's a G-League guy. This just in: Mazzulla sleeps with his mouth taped shut ...  |
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Post by drewski6 on Mar 8, 2023 15:50:24 GMT -5
The only problem with Al at the 5 is his rebounding. He's never been known as a very good one when it comes to that. I'm fine with his defense down low but he would seem to be a better option at the 4 where he fits well as a perimeter shooter and can defend (at the hip if you will) wings and bigs. It's his natural position. Then who is the 5 when Rob can't be in there especially if the double big will be the norm? Maybe C by committee using Muscalla, Kornet & Griffin works but I'd like to see one be the regular guy so decide by the POs which of Muscalla or Kornet works best with Al. I'll bet it Moose but does he have the stamina for the minutes required? As for Grant ... keep him at the 4 as Al's primary backup.
* Sure could have used Nerlens Noel (Sixers 10 day contract) at the 5 when I think of Al at the 4 and who can replace Rob at the 5
Right on the rebounding and we have no rim protection. Only 15 minutes a game huh max? Rob has played a grand total of 19 total minutes in the last three games and we lost all 3 Want the real fact? We can't win without Rob playing at least 30 to 40% of the time. Want another fact? We don't have one real fuckin player who can replace Rob.. What i will agree on? Rob can't be counted on ... And..... Just add some more games and minutes for Al and watch him fizzle out from fatigue the remainder of the year. Al Horford is in the top 95% percentile in rim defense. We've struggled to defend the 3 pt line all year, and playing Al out of position is a big part of that. Our winning percentage since RWills return vs what was it when he was out? Not sure exactly, but it would be interesting to know. Al may not be an elite rebounder but he isnt bad. What he is bad at, though, is defending the perimeter. We use to get out and run. We use to have better ball movement. To me (just my observations) it all changed when RWill came back. He's not a problem himself. But its the fit. We keep giving up career shooting nights to inconsistent shooters. Like Myles Turner. Like I. Quickley. Meanwhile, we've lost our speed, our transition game. And Rob is invisible on offense. When Al is better at rim protector (he is) - so youre weakening yourself there too playing RWill at the 5 and Rob at the 4. Thats just too much to sacrifice for rebounding. In the beginning of the year we were getting out rebounded every game, and winning 80% of them. We've robbed Peter to pay Paul. Our best starting 5 is : Smart White Brown Tatum Al Second best? Put Brog in for White. Third best? White /Brog in the backcourt. The lineup w Al/Rob is our fourth best. And its not terrible. But its slow, turnover prone, lose our transition game, bad at defending the 3 pt line, and doesnt space the floor as well. It is better at rebounding - Ill give you that. |
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Post by dfries13 on Mar 8, 2023 17:22:34 GMT -5
Right on the rebounding and we have no rim protection. Only 15 minutes a game huh max? Rob has played a grand total of 19 total minutes in the last three games and we lost all 3 Want the real fact? We can't win without Rob playing at least 30 to 40% of the time. Want another fact? We don't have one real fuckin player who can replace Rob.. What i will agree on? Rob can't be counted on ... And..... Just add some more games and minutes for Al and watch him fizzle out from fatigue the remainder of the year. Al Horford is in the top 95% percentile in rim defense. We've struggled to defend the 3 pt line all year, and playing Al out of position is a big part of that. Our winning percentage since RWills return vs what was it when he was out? Not sure exactly, but it would be interesting to know. Al may not be an elite rebounder but he isnt bad. What he is bad at, though, is defending the perimeter. We use to get out and run. We use to have better ball movement. To me (just my observations) it all changed when RWill came back. He's not a problem himself. But its the fit. We keep giving up career shooting nights to inconsistent shooters. Like Myles Turner. Like I. Quickley. Meanwhile, we've lost our speed, our transition game. And Rob is invisible on offense. When Al is better at rim protector (he is) - so youre weakening yourself there too playing RWill at the 5 and Rob at the 4. Thats just too much to sacrifice for rebounding. In the beginning of the year we were getting out rebounded every game, and winning 80% of them. We've robbed Peter to pay Paul. Our best starting 5 is : Smart White Brown Tatum Al Second best? Put Brog in for White. Third best? White /Brog in the backcourt. The lineup w Al/Rob is our fourth best. And its not terrible. But its slow, turnover prone, lose our transition game, bad at defending the 3 pt line, and doesnt space the floor as well. It is better at rebounding - Ill give you that. You caught me on a good day. Ist Tatum is not and never will be a PF.. He can't play consistent D against the bigs he's our SF and that's the way it will always be. 2nd Rob is at about 50% at best.. This may be a moot point because it was obvious to everyone before the season but Stevens it seems. I have no clue where your getting your tournover % and i don't know if your right or wrong. I'll agree with not defending the perimeter but Smart hasn't been able to do that all year even before he got hurt. I'll even agree we need to fast break but that requires Rob to rebound and make a quick outlet pass.. Horford can't . What's hard to forget? We made it to the finals playing two bigs last year .. Granted Rob had half a leg and Horford was more rested from taking the previous year off. What i see is our biggest problem?.. Your friend from RI has fucked with what we were doing right playing defense. Oh and White needs to start with or without Smart as a running mate. The ball moves and White pushes for the fast break almost always.. |
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Post by Admin on Mar 8, 2023 19:39:25 GMT -5
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Post by drewski6 on Mar 9, 2023 10:56:28 GMT -5
The only problem with Al at the 5 is his rebounding. He's never been known as a very good one when it comes to that. I'm fine with his defense down low but he would seem to be a better option at the 4 where he fits well as a perimeter shooter and can defend (at the hip if you will) wings and bigs. It's his natural position. Then who is the 5 when Rob can't be in there especially if the double big will be the norm? Maybe C by committee using Muscalla, Kornet & Griffin works but I'd like to see one be the regular guy so decide by the POs which of Muscalla or Kornet works best with Al. I'll bet it Moose but does he have the stamina for the minutes required? As for Grant ... keep him at the 4 as Al's primary backup.
* Sure could have used Nerlens Noel (Sixers 10 day contract) at the 5 when I think of Al at the 4 and who can replace Rob at the 5
Right on the rebounding and we have no rim protection. Only 15 minutes a game huh max? Rob has played a grand total of 19 total minutes in the last three games and we lost all 3 Want the real fact? We can't win without Rob playing at least 30 to 40% of the time.Want another fact? We don't have one real fuckin player who can replace Rob.. What i will agree on? Rob can't be counted on ... And..... Just add some more games and minutes for Al and watch him fizzle out from fatigue the remainder of the year. If you re-read my post, you'll see that I stated 15 mins max with the double big - defined as : 2 of any of the following in the game: Al, Rob, Moose, Kornet, Griffin The bulk of those - will go to the combination of Rob and Al. What I was honestly thinking - 15 mins with both. 12 mins with just Rwill. And 17 mins with just Al. That comes to 44 mins. So going by that - Thats RWill for 27/mins. The game is 48 mins. So that means RWill is out there 55% of the time according to my thoughts at the time. I dont buy that we *cant* win without RWill playing 30-40% of the time. I think we can win with him playing 0% of the time. We can still win if hes not playing. But that doesnt mean its what im advocating for. The player(s) we absolutely cant win without are Tatum and to a less extent Brown (end list). I say less extent Brown - because I think we can win like a game 5 if he needs to miss one during the playoffs. But I think ultimately - if he misses the whole playoffs (knock on wood) we're mostly screwed. I think we're not a championship team without Tatum. RWill is a good player and a useful piece and a contributor. He moves the needle, but in a 7 game series against a top team. If Tatum, Brown, White, Smart, Al, Brogs are playing well. And someone like Moose/Kornet/Grant is doing serviceable as a backup C - I think we can overcome the hypothetical loss of RWill. Just wanted to clarify. |
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Post by dfries13 on Mar 9, 2023 11:51:59 GMT -5
Fine Drew maybe it's just me stuck in the past with the two big lineup. Times change and maybe i'll change my point of view.
We've been thu this all year i think we both know where each other stand..
The only thing i think i'm really sure on and i'm standing firmly by.
None of the trio of Moose /Kornet/ Grant are serviceable centers less when we get deep in the playoffs.
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Post by hedleylamarr on Mar 9, 2023 20:51:40 GMT -5
Key words:
I don't know but I don't think Brad talked to Noel.
NO, you don't know if he did or if he didn't. MAYBE he spoke to him and Noel turned us down. MAYBE he talked to him previously and he doesn't want to play here. MAYBE he wants to play and won't here. See how easy this is?? MAYBE he has a bad attitude. MAYBE he's got injury history. It is just a stretch to me, without more data, to be "certain" we haven't signed anyone because the owners are cheap. Sorry, I need more convincing than that.
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Post by dfries13 on Mar 10, 2023 12:04:02 GMT -5
How about this
We signed no one right?
We didn't sign anyone because Stevens didn't want anyone.
Just a guess but it makes sense....
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Post by cole on Mar 10, 2023 12:19:15 GMT -5
If kornet is the guy to count on we need to be playing him. He was better when he was playing.
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Post by Admin on Mar 10, 2023 14:27:22 GMT -5
How about this We signed no one right? We didn't sign anyone because Stevens didn't want anyone. Just a guess but it makes sense....
But Wyc said we'd fill the final spot ... no way it goes unfilled before the playoffs.
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Post by kdp59 on Mar 11, 2023 6:33:00 GMT -5
CHEAP ... LOL! Keep playing that excuse cuz pretty soon we'll all be forced to agree. Right now I'm hopeful that Brad doesn't like Noel as much as somebody else on his wish list. I just hope whoever it is has been contacted and agreed to come here but why hasn't he been signed already unless he's a G-League guy. This just in: Mazzulla sleeps with his mouth taped shut ... probably chews gum in his sleep the wife ( or whoever) can't stand the noise!! |
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Post by kyceltic on Mar 11, 2023 11:03:29 GMT -5
Jarred Vanderbilt would have been perfect for us! I give the Lakers an A plus for what they did at the trade deadline, and I give us an F for what we didn't do at the trade deadline! Question for Cole, was Austin Reeves this good at Wichita st. and Oklahoma?
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Post by cole on Mar 11, 2023 11:06:17 GMT -5
Jarred Vanderbilt would have been perfect for us! I give the Lakers an A plus for what they did at the trade deadline, and I give us an F for what we didn't do at the trade deadline! Question for Cole, was Austin Reeves this good at Wichita st. and Oklahoma? I thought he would be an NBA player. Probably bench scorer. |
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Post by kyceltic on Mar 11, 2023 11:21:13 GMT -5
Jarred Vanderbilt would have been perfect for us! I give the Lakers an A plus for what they did at the trade deadline, and I give us an F for what we didn't do at the trade deadline! Question for Cole, was Austin Reeves this good at Wichita st. and Oklahoma? I thought he would be an NBA player. Probably bench scorer. He's all that and more! |
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